International Travel

[Charles Lund]

Error correction:

The New York Times vaccination tracker today showed for the U.S. that 35 percent of the population was fully vaccinated , making the total 46 percent who had received at least the first dose.  There are certain subgroups who report they will not get vaccinated.

Although encouraging, there are potential complications for overall outcome, such as newer variations of the virus. 

My personal view is that I hope there is a credible credential to confirm full vaccination for use with international travel.  Ideally, people could elect to link it to passport information to assist with Electronic Travel Authorization of for confirming vaccination status on arrival.


Charles Lund

[Ally Mcintosh]

Charles,


Those figures are untrue. It’s a total of 46% that have received their first dose, not on top of the 35% that are fully vaccinated. Perhaps that’s what you meant.


Ally

[John Mayhugh]

Ally,
I suggest getting a bit better understanding of things before offering up criticism of an entire country. Unfortunately, our media (on both liberal and conservative sides) prefers to cover news in the most extreme way possible. If you rely on a news story or two and don't look at actual data or a broader range of sources, you won't get a very realistic picture. Even worse if it's unvetted social media claims.

Polling data that I've read indicates about 25-30% of Americans say they do not intend to be vaccinated. Hesitancy varies among political groups, racial groups, and age groups. I feel like much of the hesitancy is due to government messaging such as leading officials previously stating that vaccinated people should still wear masks. That has changed recently, so maybe vaccine interest will increase. Or perhaps there is just a certain skeptical portion of the population.

Note that a recent survey showed a similar 25% hesitancy among people in the EU.

[Kalen Braley]

Ally,
I suggest getting a bit better understanding of things before offering up criticism of an entire country. Unfortunately, our media (on both liberal and conservative sides) prefers to cover news in the most extreme way possible. If you rely on a news story or two and don't look at actual data or a broader range of sources, you won't get a very realistic picture. Even worse if it's unvetted social media claims.

Polling data that I've read indicates about 25-30% of Americans say they do not intend to be vaccinated. Hesitancy varies among political groups, racial groups, and age groups. I feel like much of the hesitancy is due to government messaging such as leading officials previously stating that vaccinated people should still wear masks. That has changed recently, so maybe vaccine interest will increase. Or perhaps there is just a certain skeptical portion of the population.

Note that a recent survey showed a similar 25% hesitancy among people in the EU.

John,


While I understand your point, its a very fair one, where does one then get reliable information if mainstream news is either liberal or conservative, and government information cannot be trusted?

[Michael Whitaker]

It’s not just COVID vaccine hesitancy, John. Many people are leery of any vaccine, even flu or shingles. We’re just hearing more about this hesitancy because it’s COVID related. There is so much “anti-science” BS out there these days that convinces 25% of the population that someone... government, big pharma, corporations, the deep state... is out to get them.


Facebook is the worst thing that ever happened to civil society.

[Ally Mcintosh]

John,


That’s effectively what I said in my second post, that perhaps I shouldn’t have singled it out and that maybe it’s no better or worse than any other country. That doesn’t change what I said in my first post: It’s unlikely that the US (and yes, most other countries) will get to the 80% needed to gain herd immunity. You’re right though: A quick check shows that if there is any trend for anti-vax, it tends to be that high income countries are worse with lower income countries more compliant. Misguided assumption on it being US at the top.


Mike: Agree 100%.

[V. Kmetz]

Only in Darwin's America...

More people vaccinated = less CoVid..less deaths, less transmissions, less hospitalizations, less stress on health care, less everything bad that comes from CoVid...less masks, distancing, more normalcy... dispute those figures, that truth... 

These same people were taking victory laps in April and May of 20... and then the summer came...they demanded their holiday gatherings...more surge...and at the same time all along wondering why we can't get back to normal....  https://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow/videos/281825436468473

But in sardonic response to the petulant crowd, I say JRB should ExOrder...

"Anybody over 12 yrs of age not in the pipeline by June 15, no more Vaccines after that...just reserves for the younger kids not cleared yet and a booster reserve for those already vaxxed... we'll give the rest away to a country that needs and wants them." We'll see who's full of it then.

Given the last 24 years (and particularly the last 240 weeks) of right wing bs, I'm fine with 25% of that America playing with a gun that can no longer kill me and the other 75%..Give me liberty or give me death? How about you take both, numbnuts?

[Kalen Braley]

It’s not just COVID vaccine hesitancy, John. Many people are leery of any vaccine, even flu or shingles. We’re just hearing more about this hesitancy because it’s COVID related. There is so much “anti-science” BS out there these days that convinces 25% of the population that someone... government, big pharma, corporations, the deep state... is out to get them.

Facebook is the worst thing that ever happened to civil society.

Michael,

I would tend to expand that to all social media platforms in their various forms and permutations...but agreed in principle.

For example according to this recent article, the majority of misinformation on COVID vaccines has come from a mere twelve sources.  https://www.biospace.com/article/new-research-finds-just-12-people-responsible-for-online-covid-19-vaccine-misinformation-/

But that's only the start of the issue.  Now the reader must determine... Is the CCDH a reliable source?  Who runs it, and what are their motives, and how accurate is their reporting?  And this is just one article, multiply this by orders of magnitude as it applies to other issues.

And this doesn't even address that the best way to entrench someone to stick with and/or double down on their false narratives, is to point out their information and assumptions are incorrect. Decades of studies have shown this to be true and in the social media era, its now flourishing like wild-fire, where in many cases false information spreads far quicker than actual facts.

So its a nuanced issue overall, and while the Internet has been fantastic in spreading good and valuable information, and connecting us, and creating business opportunities, etc...its also become an extremely effective tool in spreading and disseminating conspiracy theories and outright lies that otherwise would have had no oxygen to survive.

[Charles Lund]

Ally,


Here is the link to the New York Times international summary:


Tracking Coronavirus Vaccinations Around the World

https://nyti.ms/2Yqfz92

The curves clarify that 35 percent are fully vaccinated and 46 percent have had at least one dose.  The dose per 100 people is based on total doses and the number would be well over 100 if 80 percent were fully vaccinated.



For some time here, we have been vaccinating two to three million people per day.  I've been fully vaccinated since February 17th.


There is an effort to reopen.  Businesses will have the option of requiring masks.  I hope most businesses do that.


Charles Lund 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks Charles - you made it sound like 81% had their first dose in you first post. Clearly that’s not what you meant.

[jeffwarne]

Ally,


Here is the link to the New York Times international summary:


Tracking Coronavirus Vaccinations Around the World

https://nyti.ms/2Yqfz92

The curves clarify that 35 percent are fully vaccinated and 46 percent have had at least one dose.  The does per 100 people is based on total doses and the number would be well over 100 if 80 percent were fully vaccinated.



For some time here, we have been vaccinating two to three million people per day.  I've been fully vaccinated since February 17th.


There is an effort to reopen.  Businesses will have the option of requiring masks.  I hope most businesses do that.


Charles Lund

The 46% (and rising daily) is the most important stat as it indicates who is actually committed to getting the vax, and puts us 2-3 weeks or less away from 46% at the fully vaxed number.
Some employers are making it mandatory and vax resistors facing that are going far more quietly than I though they would.
The recent ease of getting one(in the US)has certainly helped.
Pretty sad many countries are and will suffer due to lack of supply, while we have to campaigns to get people to take a pretty low risk step(for most people)to end this nightmare.

[David_Tepper]

Worth reading:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-05-15/so-you-ve-decided-on-a-trip-to-europe-now-what?srnd=premium

[Dan_Callahan]

In my mind, the most important stat going forward is the death rate among those who have been vaccinated. If there is a 94% likelihood I won't get covid after I've been vaccinated, and a 100% likelihood I won't die from it or even be hospitalized if I do, then we really aren't talking about a significant issue.

In the US, the vaccine is widely available to the point that you no longer even need an appointment to get a shot. You can just walk in and be done in 20 minutes. So people who choose not to get vaccinated are, in my opinion, assuming the risk in just the same way as people who choose to smoke or who drive without a seatbelt.

Whether a vaccinated person can transmit the virus is a different issue and understandably gives one pause on international travel. If I want to go to a country where a small percentage of folks are vaccinated and there's a chance I could unknowingly carry the virus and spread it when I land, I shouldn't be traveling. In the same way many of us didn't visit parents and grandparents for the last year.

I do hope in the weeks ahead as we have a growing surplus of vaccines in the US, that we will be more proactive in shipping our extras to the countries that are in dire straits right now.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have a trip planned for Israel in October. I have different concerns than Covid at the moment.

[Dan_Callahan]

I have a trip planned for Israel in October. I have different concerns than Covid at the moment.

Yeah, I think I’d rather take my chances with covid.

[Lou_Duran]

Hows about we all do everyone including ourselves a great big favour by not travelling outside of our own country this year? Is that really too much to ask even of the most selfish, self centred, self obsessed ........*

Atb


* insert favourite derogatory word.

Is this POV common in England and Scotland?


I've yet to book my travel to the Buda or the Highlands, not for fear of being infected or infecting anyone, but because I don't want to go anywhere I am not welcomed. 

[Lou_Duran]

I have a trip planned for Israel in October. I have different concerns than Covid at the moment.

Visiting the Holy Land has been high on my bucket list for many years.  We had a trip planned some 30 years ago led by the dynamic senior pastor at a diverse bible church and a local rabbi with many years of experience taking Americans over.  Unfortunately, there was an escalation of violence a few months before the trip which prompted several couples to cancel.  Our opinion then was that if  we waited for a time with little danger in the Middle East, that we'd never make the trip, but our argument didn't change minds and it was "postponed".  We were to have our deposits applied to a similar itinerary in the future, but it was never rescheduled.  Will be interested in your post visit report, OT or otherwise.

[Mark Pearce]

Facebook is the second worst thing that ever happened to civil society after Twitter.

Fixed it for you, Mike

[Michael Whitaker]

Facebook is the second worst thing that ever happened to civil society after Twitter.

Fixed it for you, Mike

I’ll take your word for that as I’ve never been a Twitter user. Facebook was enough to chase me from social media for good.

As you know, I’m an old fogie, so all these new fangled things cause me much consternation. I’ve become the old gramps sitting on his porch yelling at the kids to get off his lawn. 🤬

[Sean_A]

Facebook is the second worst thing that ever happened to civil society after Twitter.

Fixed it for you, Mike

Twitter has been great for me. I am nicking tons of old b&w photos! 


Ciao

[AChao]

Just an additional note on vaccines to other countries ... I agree with everything Dan said here ...
On vaccines to other countries, there is more than what meets the eye.  Many countries have the opportunity to purchase vaccines at various stages of development; however, most don't ... some of it is arguably scientific -- want to see the vaccine far enough or further along ... some of it is political -- protecting a small vaccine maker in their own country ... some of it is just stupid -- millions of people are dying because of bad policy.
US will be shipping 60 million doses of its Astra-Zeneca stockpile to other countries soon.  Unfortunately, world still probably needs 5 billion plus at least.

In my mind, the most important stat going forward is the death rate among those who have been vaccinated. If there is a 94% likelihood I won't get covid after I've been vaccinated, and a 100% likelihood I won't die from it or even be hospitalized if I do, then we really aren't talking about a significant issue.

In the US, the vaccine is widely available to the point that you no longer even need an appointment to get a shot. You can just walk in and be done in 20 minutes. So people who choose not to get vaccinated are, in my opinion, assuming the risk in just the same way as people who choose to smoke or who drive without a seatbelt.

Whether a vaccinated person can transmit the virus is a different issue and understandably gives one pause on international travel. If I want to go to a country where a small percentage of folks are vaccinated and there's a chance I could unknowingly carry the virus and spread it when I land, I shouldn't be traveling. In the same way many of us didn't visit parents and grandparents for the last year.

I do hope in the weeks ahead as we have a growing surplus of vaccines in the US, that we will be more proactive in shipping our extras to the countries that are in dire straits right now.

[MKrohn]

Hows about we all do everyone including ourselves a great big favour by not travelling outside of our own country this year? Is that really too much to ask even of the most selfish, self centred, self obsessed ........*

Atb


* insert favourite derogatory word.

Is this POV common in England and Scotland?


I've yet to book my travel to the Buda or the Highlands, not for fear of being infected or infecting anyone, but because I don't want to go anywhere I am not welcomed.

Lou,


I can't speak for the UK but I think the "not welcome" bit certainly exists in Australia and potentially other countries who have not really had Covid deaths/infections in the numbers that others have had.


It may have some merit (time will tell) but at its basis, its more like, "we did everything right and you didn't".


This "thinking" also  exists at a micro level here where Premiers (in charge of the states) and NZ will routinely close their borders to others in some type of chest beating exercise.


I suspect we will be one of the last to open our borders as there is seemingly no rush here to get vaccinated, my 80 year old parents are not jabbed yet, they are waiting on their doctor. There is no great problem as they don't move around very much and their only risk is Covid being brought in from overseas and escaping quarantine.

[Sean_A]

Hows about we all do everyone including ourselves a great big favour by not travelling outside of our own country this year? Is that really too much to ask even of the most selfish, self centred, self obsessed ........*

Atb


* insert favourite derogatory word.

Is this POV common in England and Scotland?


I've yet to book my travel to the Buda or the Highlands, not for fear of being infected or infecting anyone, but because I don't want to go anywhere I am not welcomed.

I wouldn't say its common, just accepted by many as sensible. It's nothing to do with Americans per se, its just that the US has been less than sensible during the pandemic. The UK was bad enough and we now have a handle on the matter. Why introduce unknowables into the situation?

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Wouldn't a vaccine passport with a test as well before flight solve a lot of issues?
Sure it would discriminate against those not vaccinated, but they would be simply be subject to the same quarantine rules already in place.

[Tommy Williamsen]

We have not seen our son, daughter-in-law, or grandchildren since March 2020 or our daughter since May 2020. We will probably drive to our daughter in Michigan next month and fly to Denver sometime this summer. FaceTime is great though. We do a family FaceTime every Sunday. Everyone is vaccinated.