[Philippe Binette]

I’ve never been to Augusta National so I can’t judge...


But
Let’s say you take East Lake and Aronimink for example (could be other courses) and you set it up and maintain it like Augusta national..
fairway all the way to the bunkers
Fairway height everywhere around the greens
And so on...
would Augusta be oubviously superior from the other 2 courses ?
And if so, why ?

[Will Lozier]

Never been to Aronimink...but yes. The greensites at ANGC are what put it on the highest level - the 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc. And, the routing maximizes the potential of the property.

[Paul Jones]

Never been to Aronimink...but yes. The greensites at ANGC are what put it on the highest level - the 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc. And, the routing maximizes the potential of the property.

What he said !!!  Most of the things people complain about are maintenance issues: over seeding, planting trees, too many flowers, cut of rough.  The property, routing and greens are some of the best you will ever find.

[JESII]

It's really an interesting thought...but certainly pure speculation.


I know Aronimink well but have never been to Augusta (or East lake for that matter). Aronimink is really really good so I don't think any course would be far superior but I suspect Augusta would stand out thanks to the excitement many of it's holes produce. Aronimink may be among the very best examples of parkland golf but there's just not many shots that get your blood pumping the way I expect the four par 5's plus the approaches to 5, 9, 11, 12 and 14 at Augusta would.

[jeffwarne]

East Lake and ANGC is the same paragraph is laughable...
If you've been to ANGC, you know this

[Jeff_Brauer]

Never been to Aronimink...but yes. The greensites at ANGC are what put it on the highest level - the 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc. And, the routing maximizes the potential of the property.

I've never thought the ANGC routing was anything special.  Too many partially blind shots.  And, I have told the story before about running into a distant relative of Mac's in Singapore, who claimed (but I never saw the evidence) that family legend had it that Mac never liked the routing that well.  He felt using the old house sort of set it up to run up and down hills.  In Mac's defense, one general hillside from CH to Rae's Creek is a routing challenge, much like Olympic. Of course, not getting paid might have influenced some late in life comments by Mac to his family, who knows.


And most greens are highly sculpted, so I have never really attributed green sites to the appeal of the place.  1 is pretty flat ground, 3 is a very good use of the left to right downslope, 5 is on a reverse slope which is not an ideal place for a green, but they made it work, etc.  Off the top of my head, 7 is a nice green site, as is 11, 12, and 13, the most natural holes on the property.


Just MHO.

[JMEvensky]

East Lake and ANGC is the same paragraph is laughable...
If you've been to ANGC, you know this

I disagree only to the extent you probably should've said "If you've been to East Lake...".


The only possible explanation for the plaudits EL receives is the Jones connection, I think. It's a good golf course with a very cool clubhouse and history.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Philippe, I have never been to Augusta either, but have played both East lake and Aronimink. I was not enamored with East Lake and do not think it could ever hold a candle to ANGC. I loved Aronimink. It has some of Ross' best greens and the routing over the hilly terrain is just excellent. They can make that course as difficult as they want. Would ANGC still stand out? Not sure until I play there, but Aronimink would not be far behind I don't think.

[Jeff_Brauer]

A bit OT, but this topic got me to wondering about Mac's basic design mindset for ANGC.  I don't recall reading about it right off hand, but....


In the go go 20's, he did many championship courses with numerous sand bunkers.  By the 1930's, he was selling fewer bunkers, and that he was the guy to create a good challenge for a lot less money than he previously spent.


In comes Bobby Jones to Cypress, and he is impressed.  But, by the time ANGC got started, Mac was on his fewer bunker kick, presumably a money saving device. 


I wonder if he pitched a return to his more classic style because it was known to be a championship course?


I know the story is that Jones and he were Sympatico on the design style, but again, Jones was impressed with Cypress, and got something different.  They were both enamored of TOC, but it certainly has it's share of bunkers, if not big and bold as Mac had typically designed in the 20's.  Of course, while on track to be famous, ANGC certainly didn't have a wealth of money to spend either (including paying Mac's fee)


Basically, it leads to the question of whether or not ANGC was sort of designed to muni standards, which does tie into the OP about would it stand out?

[Lou_Duran]

East Lake and ANGC is the same paragraph is laughable...
If you've been to ANGC, you know this

How about ANGC vs Peachtree?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Interesting, but in reading Dean Knuth (Pope of Slope) website, one tidbit, albeit from 11 years ago was that ANGC had a course rating of 78.1 but a slope rating of only 137. Compared to other championship venues, the course rating was similarly high, but the slope rating is much lower (most of the other venues had slope ratings of over 145, and some in the 150s.)


Shinney seemed as the second best at being tough for championships, but easy in everyday play, at 73.6 and 138.  Some of that low slope is in lower overall yardage than ANGC in everyday play.


The average course rating for courses guys like us probably play is about 120.


Short point, Mac seemed to have hit on the formula to make courses playable by all.  In reality, his general idea prevailed from 1933 when ANGC opened until at least the go go 1980s, when awards, visuals, and tough became the design order of the day.

[Matt_Cohn]

So many of holes at Augusta are distinctive and immediately identifiable. Every hole on the back nine can be distinguished in two words or less:


Way downhill
Pond left
Rae's creek
Sweeping 5
Bunkerless
Downhill 5
Slopey 3
Straight 4
Uphill 4


Even if we saw all the holes at Aronomink every year, or considering East Lake, is there any possible way you could distinguish those holes in two words?


I think that's part of the answer.

[Edward Glidewell]

East Lake and ANGC is the same paragraph is laughable...
If you've been to ANGC, you know this

I was going to say the same thing. I've played East Lake a few times -- haven't played ANGC, but I've been there for the Masters several times and so have seen the course up close. There's absolutely no comparison between the two. East Lake is a fine golf course, but ANGC is vastly superior.


ANGC is the best course I've ever seen in person (Pinehurst #2 is second), but I admittedly have not played golf all around the world (or even all around the US) like many other posters here.

[jeffwarne]

So many of holes at Augusta are distinctive and immediately identifiable. Every hole on the back nine can be distinguished in two words or less:


Way downhill
Pond left
Rae's creek
Sweeping 5
Bunkerless
Downhill 5
Slopey 3
Straight 4
Uphill 4


Even if we saw all the holes at Aronomink every year, or considering East Lake, is there any possible way you could distinguish those holes in two words?


I think that's part of the answer.

i'd say that's merely a question of familiarity.And pretty much unproveable unless Aronimink hosts 40-50 majors in a row.
I don't think it would be too hard to find a hole at most courses that could be described as "straight 4" or "uphill 4", but I'm just not sure how using those two words makes Augusta better by itself.

[John Emerson]

I guess it depends on what you are comparing it to?  Let me preface my next comment by saying I’ve never been to ANGC.  But, I find it hard to believe that I will more shocked there then the first time I saw Cruden Bay.  I just don’t see it.  Maybe I’m wrong, and if I am I’ll eat crow.  Cruden Bay is so special in so many ways.  I’ve yet to see anything remotely close to its scale and vastness feeling.  Streamsong felt vast, but a fake vast if that makes any sense...

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