[Matt Wharton]

The Par 3 9th green at Carolina Golf Club prior to the 2008 restoration was a small green severely pitched back to front.  I remember always taking the shorter club from the tee because getting up and down from short was much easier than two putting from above the hole.  When I used to work at Lake Bonaventure CC in VA back in the late 80s and early 90s we had a member that layed up every time on the Par 3 7th hole.  The green was elevated just beyond a creek so he played short of the creek and pitched on then putted for his 3 or 4, those of us that tried to hit the green always brought the creek and 5 or 6 into play.

[Wade Whitehead]

I call the third hole at Ballyhack a "driveable par five."  I've come to think that the best play, over time, might be to play a shot just short of the green, then try for an up and down.  Doing so takes most of the big trouble (creek, bunkers, swales) out of play.  This [in theory] eliminates five as a score and should yield a good number of threes.

The 16th at Roanoke Country Club is also a long par three (230-ish yards from the back tee) that calls for a shot just short of the putting surface.  The up and down from there is far simpler than some of the two-putts on the green.   In most of my competitive rounds there, I try to hit a club that can't reach the green (which means it can't reach the greenside bunkers, which are really tough) and take my chance on a good chip and putt.

To me, this is the mark of a good long (220+ yards) par three.  It gives the player an option besides hitting the full distance from the tee, even if those options aren't obvious on the first play.

WW

[Carl Rogers]

Some of what Wade has said about Ballyhack #3 can be said about Riverfront #2.  A pitch to a front pin can be easier than a putt from the middle of the green
A pitch from over the green to a back pin can be likewise easier.  #2 green is severe test.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Got to thinking about this as waking up.  Pre coffee, my thoughts might be garbled......


Purely conceptually, I think the chance to hit the green or a specific pin should generally be about 2/3 positive.  I use the 2/3 because the USGA Slope system and other research show how big a target must be for 2/3 of golfers to reasonably hit it, obviously tweaked a bit for wind, uphill/downhill, etc., most golfers expect to be able to hit at least some part of the green.


If, for whatever reason in fitting a green to a site, some smaller target areas may arise.  There could be a few pins on a green that approach 50-50% chance of success, and those odds of success for the bailout make that choice the most tempting, which I think would be the key to artificially create missing the green as an option.   


And, I don't think laying up short is really as conceptually strong as playing wide, or even over a green for score.  Coming up short to avoid hazards is too easy, and happens naturally way too often by mistake[size=78%].[/size]



In other words, I think golfers find that kind of hole appealing enough when they are given a choice to make but won't like it if the green is so contrived that the architect makes the decision for them.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jeff, I wonder if Raynor thought about laying up on 11 at Charleston when he designed the hole. I suspect that when you design a hole you do think about where it is best to miss the green but do you think about it as a strategy?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Wade, when I began this thread I thought about which holes I might purposefully miss the green at Ballyhack and came up empty. I know you have a great short game but I can't imagine missing number three on purpose. My wife, of course, often hits to the front of that green, but that is because she can't hit it any farther.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff, I wonder if Raynor thought about laying up on 11 at Charleston when he designed the hole. I suspect that when you design a hole you do think about where it is best to miss the green but do you think about it as a strategy?

First you'd have to find me one quote from Seth Raynor where he even discusses hitting a golf shot.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tommy,


Like TD, I don't think we know much about what Raynor was thinking.  I actually sold off my Bahto book, and don't recall right now if the Lion's Mouth was a CBM template or something Seth came up with. I don't recall one at NGLA for instance.


Either way, I'm sure the contrast of a small front pin area to a wide back of green (a la Pete and Alice at 14 Harbor Town) was similarly thought of to contrast the options by anyone thinking about it.  They might not have had all the shot data to pin it down, going by feel instead.

[Jay Mickle]

The 12th at Mid Pines is a slight dogleg left with a right to left sloping fairway playing to a narrow green that is angled at about 30* to the fairway. To that add that the front 2/3rds of the green also slopes rights to left practically dictating a left front layup if your drive has found the right side of the fairway and you have more than a short iron in hand. A short right layup is no piece of cake. A perfect drive is between or as close as possible to the left waste areas leaving an approach directly in front of the green opening.

[Edward Glidewell]

This may not really fit the question because I don't think you'd intentionally lay up short of the green due to the slope, but if the pin is in the front section of the green on the 12th hole at Sedgefield (par 3) you basically have to take less club and be okay with coming up short. There's a false front and the fairway runs away from the green as well so you could end up with a 20-30 yard pitch back up to the green, but playing from there you at least have a backstop between the front section and the back tier.


If you hit it on the back tier (or even worse, over the green) when the pin is in the front, it's incredibly difficult to even keep the ball on the green from there. You have a decent chance of putting it right off the front and down the fairway.

[Tommy Williamsen]

This may not really fit the question because I don't think you'd intentionally lay up short of the green due to the slope, but if the pin is in the front section of the green on the 12th hole at Sedgefield (par 3) you basically have to take less club and be okay with coming up short. There's a false front and the fairway runs away from the green as well so you could end up with a 20-30 yard pitch back up to the green, but playing from there you at least have a backstop between the front section and the back tier.


If you hit it on the back tier (or even worse, over the green) when the pin is in the front, it's incredibly difficult to even keep the ball on the green from there. You have a decent chance of putting it right off the front and down the fairway.

That is a good illustration. I used to play Sedgefield a few time a year. Being above the hole is a tough two putt. I might not aim short but I sure didn’t mind being short.

[Pete_Pittock]

I have reluctantly concluded that my course has one and I have been WWWAAAAYYYY to stubborn. The 13th at The Reserve Vineyards - North is a short par 4, with the green set at a thirty-forty degree angle. It is guarded in front by a four foot high close mown ridge, and its 15 yard width and reverse camber won't keep a ball from running off and finishing about 8 feet below green grade when it goes long. It is okay for someone who can hit a drive 250 and launch a lob wedge. But for mere mortals you can play short right, long left or long center and hope your chipping game is in high gear.

[Tony Ristola]

Many years ago I was playing with a friend who always played the yearly tournament at the CC of Charleston. He told me that he purposefully hit short of the 11th green. It is a kind of volcano green about 175 yards long. The green is relatively small but short of the green you are green level. He told me that it is easier to make a three from there than try to get up and down left, right, or long.
I thought it was a goofy strategy until I played the hole. After missing left and making a five footer for four, I agreed. Sam Snead once made a 13 on the hole. I know the hole has been softened and I haven't played it since it was redesigned.


Are there holes in your life the you might miss a green on purpose or pin placements on particular greens where it is easier to get up and down than two putt?

Billy Casper did the same on the 3rd at Winged Foot when he won the US Open in 59.

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