Why was Bill Walton good at basketball?

[John Kirk]

The improvement in ball, floor and rim technology can not be ignored in the change on how the game is played.

I agree.  The rims seem deader than they used to be, letting a few more shots fall in.  I checked and they still use the leather ball in the NBA, but I believe every other level uses a synthetic leather ball.  Remember when a referee would test the suitability of the chosen game ball by raising his arm, dropping the ball and see if it bounces back to shoulder height? 

[John Kavanaugh]

The improvement in ball, floor and rim technology can not be ignored in the change on how the game is played.

I agree.  The rims seem deader than they used to be, letting a few more shots fall in.  I checked and they still use the leather ball in the NBA, but I believe every other level uses a synthetic leather ball.  Remember when a referee would test the suitability of the chosen game ball by raising his arm, dropping the ball and see if it bounces back to shoulder height?

Yes I do. They were slicker than the modern ball. Much harder to handle when palming/dribbling.


Hell, I bet with the quality of rubber they are smaller. No need to over inflate. Did you ever shoot around with a women's ball. Just enough smaller that you can't miss.

[Kalen Braley]

The NBA does still play with a leather ball thou, so that part is more or less still apples to apples (And when they tried to go to the synthetic ones a few years back the players revolted.)

P.S.  Shoes is where I experienced the biggest difference.  My first BBall shoes were 70s style Chuck Taylors, and when I got my first pair of modern 80's style ones they were so much better in support, comfort, and springiness.  Can't imagine those guys back then playing at top levels night in and night out with those old ones.

[John Kavanaugh]

Equipment in the 70's was so bad that I played with a 6'2" kid that started for Kentucky's national championship team and he couldn't dunk.

[Kalen Braley]

Equipment in the 70's was so bad that I played with a 6'2" kid that started for Kentucky's national championship team and he couldn't dunk.

Well I'm 6'2" and couldn't dunk a basketball in my heyday, just a volleyball every now and then.

P.S.  Did Stockton ever dunk?  He was same height, and can't ever recall having seen him do it! 

[John Kavanaugh]

In a tie in of basketball and golf. This morning I ran into Mike Whan and asked him if he knew Tom Meeks. Meeks is from my home town of Lawrenceville, Illinois. Mike hadn't heard of Tom but he said Lawrenceville was one hell of a basketball town.

[John Kavanaugh]

Equipment in the 70's was so bad that I played with a 6'2" kid that started for Kentucky's national championship team and he couldn't dunk.

Well I'm 6'2" and couldn't dunk a basketball in my heyday, just a volleyball every now and then.

P.S.  Did Stockton ever dunk?  He was same height, and can't ever recall having seen him do it! 

Did Jim Colton ever dunk?

[Kalen Braley]

Equipment in the 70's was so bad that I played with a 6'2" kid that started for Kentucky's national championship team and he couldn't dunk.

Well I'm 6'2" and couldn't dunk a basketball in my heyday, just a volleyball every now and then.

P.S.  Did Stockton ever dunk?  He was same height, and can't ever recall having seen him do it! 

Did Jim Colton ever dunk?

Is he an ex-GCA member? Name sounds familiar.

Funny/odd side story.  I was playing pickup ball at BYU, and I ran across this 7 foot 5 dude shooting some buckets on a local court by himself.  I started chatting with him and asked why he wasn't on the College team, then figured what the hell and asked if he wanted to run some 1 on 1...and got my answer.  He was slow as mud and jumped like he was stuck in it.  After beating him 2 straight, I thought to myself what a waste of god-given height.

[John Kirk]

I vaguely remember it was "much easier" to make shots.  Smaller ball means greater margin of error.  It's been 40 years since I've fooled around with the women's ball, but I probably avoided spending too much time with it because it might disrupt my already modest shooting ability.


A new Wilson Jet could be pretty slick when it was new, or when it was sweaty.  The NBA balls always had the larger grooves, which also helps shooting and ballhandling.  i looked it up, by the way.  You can still buy a leather NBA ball online, but they cost about $150-175 now.  Worth it.


John Stockton.  Big hands, big feet.  Even if he never dunked, a physically gifted player.  Might be the best passer I ever saw.  So precise.

By the way, one amazing thing from the All-Star Game a couplr years ago was Chris Paul driving to the hoop and jamming one through.  At the time he was probably 34.  He's not very tall, about 6-0.  I think a lot of these elite players have long arms and big hands.


JK, I don't think Colton ever accomplished the dunk challenge.  His one defeat in a life defined by success.

[SL_Solow]

John,  Fun to engage.  Agree completely re Barry.  Also a tremendous passer.  Stockton had long arms and big hands, another comparable to Cousy whose arms and hands were those of someone much taller.  Rodman was extraordinary but by the time he got to the Bulls he would take a lot of plays off on defense until the playoffs.  He also caused a lot of problems off the court, especially at Detroit.  Equipment changes have been discussed,  The one point I think you underestimate regarding shooting is the rules changes.  Put simply, the game has become much less physical making it easier to get off a shot or get fouled. I was talking to a player on the Bulls second 3 peat team a couple of weeks ago who has stayed close to the game.  He posits that even without working on his 3 point shot, Jordan would be even more unstoppable if he were transported into today's game because the defense could not have used their hands and bodies on him whether driving or in the post.  That doesn't even consider what the Eurostep might have allowed him to do driving.  I think that all shooters have benefitted from the greater freedom allowed by the changes in the rules.  Remember when the "hand was part of the ball". 

[Jerry Kluger]

I would watch an NBA game if it was refereed by college refs and they called traveling - even the highlights show them taking 3 or 4 steps.

[Kalen Braley]

John,  Fun to engage.  Agree completely re Barry.  Also a tremendous passer.  Stockton had long arms and big hands, another comparable to Cousy whose arms and hands were those of someone much taller.  Rodman was extraordinary but by the time he got to the Bulls he would take a lot of plays off on defense until the playoffs.  He also caused a lot of problems off the court, especially at Detroit.  Equipment changes have been discussed,  The one point I think you underestimate regarding shooting is the rules changes.  Put simply, the game has become much less physical making it easier to get off a shot or get fouled. I was talking to a player on the Bulls second 3 peat team a couple of weeks ago who has stayed close to the game.  He posits that even without working on his 3 point shot, Jordan would be even more unstoppable if he were transported into today's game because the defense could not have used their hands and bodies on him whether driving or in the post.  That doesn't even consider what the Eurostep might have allowed him to do driving.  I think that all shooters have benefitted from the greater freedom allowed by the changes in the rules.  Remember when the "hand was part of the ball".

Shelly,

Completed agreed on Travelling.  It remains the scourge of the NBA game IMO, but at least they have started to crack down on offensive fouling.

However, the hand on the ball rule has never been changed to my knowledge and is still the case according to the NBA's website

"The hand is considered “part of the ball” when it is in contact with the ball. Therefore, contact on that part of the hand by a defender while it is in contact with the ball is not illegal."

https://official.nba.com/comments-on-the-rules/#:~:text=The%20hand%20is%20considered%20%E2%80%9Cpart,the%20ball%20is%20not%20illegal.

[SL_Solow]

Kalen,  Called much differently.  Also the amount of contact allowed has changed considerably

[Garland Bayley]

Equipment in the 70's was so bad that I played with a 6'2" kid that started for Kentucky's national championship team and he couldn't dunk.

That's his problem, not a shoe problem.

[Mike Schott]

In for a little; in for a lot.  Mike; Rowe and Wicks only played one year with Alcindor/Jabbar.  They were sophomores in 1968/1969 when Kareem led the Bruins to their 3rd consecutive title with Kareem (then Lew) as MVP all 3 years.  Rowe, Wicks and Henry Bibby were the bridge to the Walton teams.  The core of the team led by Kareem were Mike Warren who was a year older, Lucious Allen, who had a nice NBA career, Kenny Heitz, who went on to Harvard Law School, and our own Lynn Shackelford.  Other than Kareem, it was a small team but not as small as the teams Wooden won with led by Hazzard and Goodrich.  As far as Kareem changing the position, how so?  He was better than just about anybody (Russell and Wilt can lay a claim) and his sky hook was better than any prior hooks although there had been many with a great hook, but he was essentially a back to the basket player.  More mobile and more skilled but nothing that changed the game.  His exceptional height coupled with his ability as well as the style of the Elvin Hayes' Houston teams led to a short term ban on dunks in the amateur game but there was nothing in his game that led others to copy him in a way that altered the way the position was played.  I would suggest that Russell's demonstration of the value of a rim protecting shot blocker had a much greater impact.

In the context of the time, Kareem was more mobile and a better passer than those who came before for the most part. Russell was a great player but not a go to guy on offense for the Celtics. Wilt overpowered the opposition. Subsequent players like Bob Lanier gained a lot from Kareem's skill set.

[Phil Burr]

This statistic popped up today with respect to Zion and shows how scoring has changed.  Five of the first six fastest players to reach 2,000 career points were college centers, although Hayes ended up playing an oversized NBA power forward along with the much smaller Wes Unseld at center.  No center since Kareem, however, has scored 2,000 points within their first 80 games.  Not Shaq, not Hakeem, not Ewing, etc.  The game has become so much more athletic and in many cases the offense no longer runs through the pivot.

[SL_Solow]

Mike,  Kareem was not a forerunner of Lanier, they were contemporaries.  Lanier was one year younger.  As far as passing, Kareem was good but he had had fewer assists per game than either Wilt or Russell over his career.  Perhaps understandable for Russell who was not a scorer but Wilt, until his last couple of years was  dominant.  Both of those guys were fine passers with great court awareness and they both could run, at least when they were younger.  Wilt was an outstanding track athlete.


Phil,  Your point is well taken but note the presence of Oscar and Elgin on this list.  Thus outstanding non-centers could get it done.  Also note Rick Barry.  I omit those who made their mark in the ABA as that league had a different style.  I note that both Oscar (Wayne Embry, Connie Dierking) and Elgin (Jim Krebs) played without a dominant center which further emphasized their skills. For my money, Oscar was as good as anyone I have ever seen and I saw Jordan play a lot of basketball.  Too many people judge Oscar by his play at the end in Milwaukee where he remained special but had slowed down and relied on Kareem.  When he was at Cincinnati he was surrounded by mediocrity with the exception of the young Jerry Lucas yet he kept the Royals relevant all by himself as a guard.

[Kalen Braley]

Phil,

i think that's all the more impressive considering Zion spent his first year battling injuries and had a lot of limited minute games that would have certainly counted for this list.

P.S. To this day, I still don't know what to call his position and/or style or who he even compares to at this point in his career?

[John Kavanaugh]

Phil,

i think that's all the more impressive considering Zion spent his first year battling injuries and had a lot of limited minute games that would have certainly counted for this list.

P.S. To this day, I still don't know what to call his position and/or style or who he even compares to at this point in his career?

With all due respect I'd call him a loser. Has anyone made the HOF with a losing record?


https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-is-the-pelicans-record-with-and-without-zion

[Phil Burr]

The answer to HOF players with losing records starts with Pete Maravich.  His Hawks and Jazz teams had a combined winning percentage of 42.5%.  Even Oscar Robertson, who established his HOF credentials with the Cincinnati Royals, won only  52.2% of his games in Cincinnati before going to Milwaukee in the twilight of his career and winning a title with Kareem.  I'm sure there are other similar "losers" in the HOF.

[Marty Bonnar]

Kareem was a damn fine pilot.
F.

[Kalen Braley]

Phil,

i think that's all the more impressive considering Zion spent his first year battling injuries and had a lot of limited minute games that would have certainly counted for this list.

P.S. To this day, I still don't know what to call his position and/or style or who he even compares to at this point in his career?

With all due respect I'd call him a loser. Has anyone made the HOF with a losing record?

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-is-the-pelicans-record-with-and-without-zion

Holy hell John,

Its basically his rookie season as he got scant enough playing time last year to gel with his teammates and figure things out.  Stick to your quick quips on things you hate on the golf course.

As Lebron says:

"Um, not as fast as you guys think it's going to happen," James said when asked how long it will take for the Lakers' chemistry to develop. "I always kind of compare it to like instant oatmeal. It is not that fast. It takes a while to get to where you can close your eyes and know exactly where your guys are."

[John Kavanaugh]

My point is that it is a dumb stat proven by the fact that Michael Jordon also had a losing record his rookie year.

[Tim Leahy]

The Lakers-Celtics rivalry was my favorite era of basketball, but if these teams were transported as is to play the recent Warrior dynasty, I believe they'd get run out of the gym in four games.  The great shooting, dribbling and passing would overwhelm them.

My favorite player in this regard is Dennis Rodman.  I became a devoted fan when he joined the San Antonio Spurs and started leading the league in rebounding every year.  I went to see the Spurs play to see how he did it.  The Spurs would run plays to a strong side, leaving Rodman at the weak side post of the offense, with some poor guy trying to keep Dennis from getting missed shots.  I knew when Rodman joined the Bulls that he was a great acquisition.  Great defender, great athlete.  In 1997-8 he led the league in rebounding for the seventh straight year at age 36.  You may have noticed that during the big ESPN documentary on the 97-98 season, that virtually no one had an unkind word about Dennis.  What a ballplayer.

John,

Excellent post as usual.  Wanted to focus in on a few things you addressed.

Its amazing how much resistance I get when claiming the GSW dynasty would eviscerate either of those Celts/Lakers 80s teams.  Between KD doing whatever he wanted inside or out, and Steph and Klay shooting from anywhere, I cant see how either team would slow them down, much less figure out how to handle them.  And their elite D often gets overlooked with their ability to switch on any screen combo and force teams into taking tough shots. Yes they would likely get out-rebounded, but rebounding alone doesn't get you a win against them especially if you can't consistently put up 120+ PPG.

P.S. Ditto on Rodman, nothing else to add other than he's the kind of guy everyone wants on their team and thankful they don't have to go up against his endless motor/hustle. He's not well liked in Utah as they still worship the Stockton/Malone days and he was certainly Karl's kryptonite.

Your nuts, the 80's Showtime Lakers would handle the Warriors "dynasty" with ease. W's played NO defense and had no one to stop Kareem or Magic. Both would put up 40 on those guys. Michael Cooper would shut down Curry the minute he crossed half court, Byron Scott handles Thompson, and Big Game James Worthy would be on Durant like a glove.
Hell, Kobe/Shaq Lakers would have dominated those W's the way they did the Iverson Sixers and Miller Pacers in the finals.

[Peter Flory]

Phil,

i think that's all the more impressive considering Zion spent his first year battling injuries and had a lot of limited minute games that would have certainly counted for this list.

P.S. To this day, I still don't know what to call his position and/or style or who he even compares to at this point in his career?

With all due respect I'd call him a loser. Has anyone made the HOF with a losing record?

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-is-the-pelicans-record-with-and-without-zion

Holy hell John,

Its basically his rookie season as he got scant enough playing time last year to gel with his teammates and figure things out.  Stick to your quick quips on things you hate on the golf course.

As Lebron says:

"Um, not as fast as you guys think it's going to happen," James said when asked how long it will take for the Lakers' chemistry to develop. "I always kind of compare it to like instant oatmeal. It is not that fast. It takes a while to get to where you can close your eyes and know exactly where your guys are."

Doesn't instant oatmeal only take a few minutes to cook?