[Thomas Dai]

Are narrow drainage ditches, like the examples shown below from Saunton (West) and Aberdovey, either whether they have water in or are sometimes dry, an under used hazard on courses?
Many different varieties possible ... lateral, crossing, diagonal, open but with some piped gaps, etc?
Narrow ditches not wide or canal like ones.

atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think modern design theory would have them leave room for a backswing, since attempting a recovery is more fun that dropping out and playing on as if it is a water hazard.


Gil Hanse used something similar at his new PGA Frisco project, wider, but basically, very narrow, channel like grass bunkers.  Some even have buffalo grass on the sides and Bermuda in the base.  I doubt the base of those ditch like grass bunkers was more than 5 to at most 10 feet wide, which is narrow in outdoor space.

[Tom_Doak]

Ditches like that really only make sense on flat land - they are drainage ditches that are allowed to factor into the play of golf holes.  On even modestly rolling ground, they are just going to be dry, and probably unnecessary for drainage.


Plus, depending on what the local climate entails, mosquitos etc. become an issue.


Where you do have a point is that most modern courses will make a much larger hazard of them so it becomes a visual feature of the course.  The bigger they are, the more golf shots are punished.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I know some gca's differentiate between ponds and creeks/ditches for that "narrowness".  Or as some golfers would be prone to say, "whoo hoo! It bounced right over the creek!"  That doesn't happen to often with ponds.


Again, I think fewer sand bunkers and more grass bunkers, possibly steep enough to extract a full shot penalty because you just can't get out with a longer iron may be a future design trend.  Those deep and steep grass bunkers also give those great shadows, too.

[John Emerson]

My very first time playing the old course I thought my approach shot was for sure headed in the Swilican “ditch” in front of #1 green.  Nervous as hell because the crowds that day around 1&18 were very large.  Fast and firm said “not today”, and bounced my ball within 15 feet of the front pin.  Pretty exciting getting that lucky.  That ditch works so well.  Carnoustie is another example where it works well.  I haven’t seen much of anything here in the states that resembles those types of ditches.  It is unfortunate because, I love the look of those ditches where the turf is mowed right up the edge at fwy height.  The straight-ish lines of the Swilican ditch make it pleasing to the eye as well.  Just one mans opinion though.  As Tom said for that to work like TOC, Carnoustie et al the land must be flat in the region around the ditch.

[Jeff Kallberg]

Are the Oakmont ditches similar in function and effect as those at Staunton (West) and Aberdovey?

[Mark_Fine]

Oakmont’s ditches are probably the most famous in the U.S.  Fownes and Loeffler built them because of the heavy clay site.  They were meant for drainage to collect and move water.  Many in the U.K. were built for the same purpose and some were also built for removing the town’s sewage like the famous one crossing 18 and 1 fairways at St. Andrews. 

[Joe Hancock]

You’d have to have a separate crew just to pull golf carts out....

[Marty Bonnar]

Oakmont’s ditches are probably the most famous in the U.S.  Fownes and Loeffler built them because of the heavy clay site.  They were meant for drainage to collect and move water.  Many in the U.K. were built for the same purpose and some were also built for removing the town’s sewage like the famous one crossing 18 and 1 fairways at St. Andrews.

Mark,
Can you please cite your source for the St Andrews info?
Cheers,
F.

[Mark Kiely]

The meandering ditch/bunker on No. 1 at Rustic Canyon comes to mind. It's grassed on the edges with long, nasty grass, and then the middle/bottom is just maybe 2-3 feet wide of sand.

[Mark_Fine]

Marty,
Regarding the Swilcan Burn; it is believed to be the first "artificial water hazard" ever created     It was originally built over 800 years ago I believe to "drain the town".  As you can imagine, almost anything and everything was dumped into or washed into that ditch.  For our book on Hazards, Forrest and I spent a lot of time researching this kind of thing including time with historians at The Royal and Ancient GC of St. Andrews.  If you look in our book, you will see some really cool old drawings and references that show/talk about the burn including William Chalmer's 1836 map of the course.  Much of the information came from visits to St. Andrews.  Maybe Forrest will chime in and add some more color.  Note:  We interviewed George Pepper and he told a story about an American golfer he was following who topped several shots into the burn.  The golfer turned to his caddie and said, "I am so disgusted with my game I could jump in there and drown myself.  To which the caddie replied, "Aye, but you couldn't keep your head down long enough to do it." 

[Marty Bonnar]

Mark,
With all due respect, I think that’s utter bollocks. You haven’t cited ANY source as I requested, but simply stated something YOU ‘believe’.
The Swilken Burn is a natural watercourse which drains the fields around the area of Strathkinness. I’m no expert on the sewerage arrangements around St Andrews, but given the location of the Swilken Burn to the rest of the town, I seriously doubt much, if any, effluent from it was ever sent down that particular watercourse.
Once again, if you have any documentary evidence to support your claim, I’d be delighted to see it.
F.

[Mark_Fine]

Marty,
With all due respect I think that's utter bollocks.  Can you cite your reference that you think the Swilken Burn is a natural watercourse which drains the fields around the area of Strathkinness? 


By the way, do you know what was dumped into man-made ditches like this in towns 800 years ago when this burn was built? 

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

I'm guessing its related to and/or possibly originated with bullocks...

[Mark_Fine]

Kalen,
Good guess.  If you Google why ditches were dug in towns 800 years ago you will find your answer about some of what ended up in there

[John Emerson]

Marty,
With all due respect I think that's utter bollocks.  Can you cite your reference that you think the Swilken Burn is a natural watercourse which drains the fields around the area of Strathkinness? 


By the way, do you know what was dumped into man-made ditches like this in towns 800 years ago when this burn was built?

Literally everything!!  Water was the main source of disease for humans until vaccines and antibiotics came around

[Mark_Fine]

John,
That is my point.  There is some interesting history on the St. Andrew's website and if you search I am sure you can find more.  As stated, Forrest and I believe it was the first artificial water hazard.  Maybe someone can name one older? 

[Marty Bonnar]

Marty,
With all due respect I think that's utter bollocks.  Can you cite your reference that you think the Swilken Burn is a natural watercourse which drains the fields around the area of Strathkinness? 


By the way, do you know what was dumped into man-made ditches like this in towns 800 years ago when this burn was built?

http://blog.standrews.com/2019/01/31/the-swilcan-bridge-and-burn-a-history/


https://www.scottish-places.info/features/featurefirst93790.html


PS Burns aren’t ‘built’, burns are what you colonials call ‘creeks’, I believe.
F.

[Kalen Braley]

Marty,

I don't think anyone is trying to target Scotland for having done this, pretty much everyone used to do it before modern sewage systems, even here in the States, (I know I'm just as shocked as you) 

P.S.  I went to India a number of years back and it was shocking to see up close.  Rivers and creeks in urban areas, completely choked in garbage and all manner of unspeakable waste with poor people right down in it looking for scraps.

[Marty Bonnar]

Kalen,
To our utter shame, raw sewage is STILL being dumped in UK watercourses:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/01/water-firms-raw-sewage-england-rivers
My point is that the Swilken Burn IS a watercourse rather than a man-made drainage ditch. Yes, it’s been shaped and lined by humans over the years, but it is a natural feature.
Cheers,
F.

[Marty Bonnar]

By way of some light relief, the Scoonie Burn which runs in front of the 18th green at lovely Leven Links, clearly WAS once an open sewer.
Rather poetically described thusly, it must have been quite the sight - and smell!

“yellow as Pactolus; as black as Styx, the colour of ketchup and the density of pea soup all accompanied with the smell of Gaol fever”.

Delightful!
F.

[Thomas Dai]

To get back somewhat towards the original thread, surely ditches can be on all sorts of golfing terrain and they don't need to be sharp edged and formalised either? And isn't there a relationship between them and narrow gully's and barranca's? Sometimes dry and potentially playable out of, sometimes wet and best avoided?
Good point about mozzi's above. Guess the same applies to snakes and the like too in some countries.
What about maintenance aspects?
atb

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,
To our utter shame, raw sewage is STILL being dumped in UK watercourses:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/01/water-firms-raw-sewage-england-rivers
My point is that the Swilken Burn IS a watercourse rather than a man-made drainage ditch. Yes, it’s been shaped and lined by humans over the years, but it is a natural feature.
Cheers,
F.

Marty,

That is indeed unexpected. 

Going back to the thread topic, i think there is a bit of nuance.

Take for example where I grew up in California, there is a big creek/small river that used to cause seasonal/occasional flooding.  So they transformed it several decades ago into a wider sunken channel to prevent this from happening.  So yes, it was certainly pre-existing and originally routed naturally, but when you look at it now its clearly been manipulated enough to be considered man-made.

[Jeff_Brauer]

If Swilken Burn was manmade, it would have been in a straight line.

[Tal Oz]

The meandering ditch/bunker on No. 1 at Rustic Canyon comes to mind. It's grassed on the edges with long, nasty grass, and then the middle/bottom is just maybe 2-3 feet wide of sand.

Mark, isn't that meandering trench an earthquake fault? @3:13 on this video Geoff says it existed as an earthquake fault. It amazes me just how often I end up in there. One of the worst places to miss on the entire course with a near impossible shot at the green. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQlJLDp3wUs

Swinley Forest has a few from what I recall, a tiny drainage ditch fronting 2 green, and one up along the left of 3?

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