[JESII]

Is there a more difficult stretch of holes than 3 - 6 with the hole locations (considering speed/firmness) used yesterday?


Watching these guys play those holes, I couldn't help but think a regular club scratch handicap golfer would struggle to play them 4 over par and would likely be 6 or 7 over par.


There has been a dry spell of players really making a run from back in the pack on Sunday. Does the difficulty of these holes, and the fact that they seem to sneak up on you (or at least me), have much to do with that?

[Peter Pallotta]

Jim
This reminds me of my 'early years' watching the Masters, when I had little idea of what the front 9 even looked like. Specifically, I remember (ie -don't- remember) anything about those holes from Jack's '86 win except that by the time he got to the 9th or 10th hole he was right where he'd started, ie he got through the front 9 in even par -- and then shot a 30 on the back, which included a bogey at the 12th!
Which is to ask you and others: did that stretch of 3-6 -always- play as tough as it did this week, or are those holes among the ones that changed the most/got harder with the post-Tiger renovations?

[PS - to Tom's point: I went to check and sure enough JN was even par after 8 holes, one birdie and one bogey, and then birdied #9 -- and, if memory serves, went on to win that year..]

[Tom_Doak]

Those holes have always been hard . . . even #3, because the green is so odd and hard to hold.


When you see runs from guys at the rear of the field, they get off to a hot start on #1 and #2, and then go on a tear through 7-8-9.  I have this thing in my head that the winner usually birdies the 9th on Sunday -- you have to be dialed in to hit it close there -- and sure enough, Matsuyama was the only one of the leaders who made 3 on Sunday.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not sure which pin location is more absurd...

Back right on Riv #10 or front left on #3 at ANGC.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not sure which pin location is more absurd...

Back right on Riv #10 or front left on #3 at ANGC.

Is there a rule that says you have to be able to attack every pin?


It's not like you couldn't play to the right half of the green there and make your 4.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not sure which pin location is more absurd...

Back right on Riv #10 or front left on #3 at ANGC.

Is there a rule that says you have to be able to attack every pin?

It's not like you couldn't play to the right half of the green there and make your 4.

I watched the last 4 or 5 groups come thru there and they all played it different ways.  None of them could figure it out and were struggling to save pars for the most part so that's when i figured if the best pros in the world who are playing the best over everyone else that week...if they can't figure it out, perhaps its jumped the proverbial shark.

[jeffwarne]

I'm not sure which pin location is more absurd...

Back right on Riv #10 or front left on #3 at ANGC.

Back right at Riv is far harder-virtually impossible.


Front left at ANGC is way easier IMHO if you lay up.
Xander had a really hard shot

[AJ_Foote]

I'm not sure which pin location is more absurd...

Back right on Riv #10 or front left on #3 at ANGC.

Is there a rule that says you have to be able to attack every pin?

It's not like you couldn't play to the right half of the green there and make your 4.

I watched the last 4 or 5 groups come thru there and they all played it different ways.  None of them could figure it out and were struggling to save pars for the most part so that's when i figured if the best pros in the world who are playing the best over everyone else that week...if they can't figure it out, perhaps its jumped the proverbial shark.

So 8-10 of the world's best all tackle a hole in different ways - isn't that the essence of great design?

[Matt_Cohn]

It's not like you couldn't play to the right half of the green there and make your 4.

I was wondering this about #3. Nobody tried to play it that way at all. Is the putt from 40 feet right really that hard?

[Pat Burke]

I’ve felt that forcing precise distance control is really the way to challenge today’s tour pros
The equipment and swingS produce bigger distance gaps and much less of a “dialed in” distance For many players.


That 3rd hole location and the annual difficulty of the shallow/angled approach on 12 make them crazy

[JESII]

I agree with AJ that the variety of strategies on #3 is an exceptionally good thing. Considering the recent critique of #10 at Riviera is that everybody hits driver, this would seem certain.. One difference is that I didn't see anyone actually get green high here and they seem to hit driver at Riviera to get past the green and pitch back up into the slope.


To Pat's point here, I feel these guys look amazed several times during their rounds at how far a particular iron went. They certainly have no shortage of information so I can only attribute it to a lack of distance control. I think this is a function of the solid core balls combined with the high speed / descending blow swing on short irons. Just a fraction off of ideal can seemingly create 15 or 20 yards of distance. Look at Hideki from the fairway bunker on 18 Saturday. Had to miss his target distance by 25 yards with a 7 iron.


All in all, these holes look very good and interesting, albeit not standout holes at ANGC but the hole locations on Sunday seem so extreme as to mute any potential early excitement. I can't think of another 4 hole stretch I'd be happy to make bogey on each hole.

[Joe Zucker]

To Pat's point here, I feel these guys look amazed several times during their rounds at how far a particular iron went. They certainly have no shortage of information so I can only attribute it to a lack of distance control. I think this is a function of the solid core balls combined with the high speed / descending blow swing on short irons. Just a fraction off of ideal can seemingly create 15 or 20 yards of distance. Look at Hideki from the fairway bunker on 18 Saturday. Had to miss his target distance by 25 yards with a 7 iron.

I think another contributing factor is the slope of the fairways at Augusta. The lies aren't level a lot of the time and this affects how the ball launches and therefore how far it goes.  Predicting how far a 9 iron will go when you're on a downslope is much trickier than a flat lie.  It seems like this is particularly perplexing for the pros, since so many of their courses have flat fairways.

[Eric LeFante]

I'm not sure which pin location is more absurd...

Back right on Riv #10 or front left on #3 at ANGC.

Is there a rule that says you have to be able to attack every pin?


It's not like you couldn't play to the right half of the green there and make your 4.

Exactly. Bobby Jones said some holes aren't meant to be birdied. You just need to take your 4 when the pin is on the left. Guys refused to aim away from the pin and some paid the price.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not sure which pin location is more absurd...

Back right on Riv #10 or front left on #3 at ANGC.

Is there a rule that says you have to be able to attack every pin?

It's not like you couldn't play to the right half of the green there and make your 4.

I watched the last 4 or 5 groups come thru there and they all played it different ways.  None of them could figure it out and were struggling to save pars for the most part so that's when i figured if the best pros in the world who are playing the best over everyone else that week...if they can't figure it out, perhaps its jumped the proverbial shark.

So 8-10 of the world's best all tackle a hole in different ways - isn't that the essence of great design?

AJ,

I agree that part is terrific to see.  The over-the-top part is that of the last 5 groups that came thru 6 made par and 4 made bogeys.  And of those 6 pars, at least 2 of them had knee knocker par attempts which they barely converted.

Considering these are elite golfers playing better than all the other elite golfers that week, and they tried different options and near half still made bogey, all that hole location was missing was a windmill and/or clowns mouth.

[Jason Thurman]

Sorry Kalen. I'm not buying it. Why can't a 320ish yard hole be a "par hole" instead of a "birdie hole," depending on setup? Why can't even a short shot require some discipline to mitigate risk?


It would be one thing if well-played shots were getting hosed. But a nervy pin that triggers all sorts of botched, nervy shots is just fine by me. Every one of these guys could have made par with a conservative strategy. They're more than good enough to hit that green in regulation every single time, and 2-putt from 20 feet right of the hole, and roll an odd one in here and there. But what modern player has the discipline to play safely on a 30 yard pitch shot?

[JMEvensky]

To Pat's point here, I feel these guys look amazed several times during their rounds at how far a particular iron went. They certainly have no shortage of information so I can only attribute it to a lack of distance control. I think this is a function of the solid core balls combined with the high speed / descending blow swing on short irons. Just a fraction off of ideal can seemingly create 15 or 20 yards of distance. Look at Hideki from the fairway bunker on 18 Saturday. Had to miss his target distance by 25 yards with a 7 iron.

Adam Scott claims the fairways aren't mowed as tight as previous years. Might be the fairways were a little wet from the rain.


You really think it's a function of being surprised by the ball?

[JohnVDB]

I'm not sure which pin location is more absurd...

Back right on Riv #10 or front left on #3 at ANGC.

If you watched the Western Intercollegiate yesterday, the back left on #18 at Pasatiempo should be considered also.

[JESII]

I do Jeff.


Might be totally off base but good players seem to hit a hell of a lot of mid/short irons over greens these days.

[JMEvensky]

You might be right--it could be some guys trying to get steeper with short irons.


Maybe we keep bumping this thread and Pat Burke weighs in again. His opinion will be more equal than others.

[JESII]

He's on here...almost agreeing with my premise!?!

[Tom_Doak]

I looked up the scoring on the hole for the week:  it played over par Thursday and Sunday, but the scoring average was 3.6 on Friday.  Hole locations matter!


Sunday's scoring average was 4.24 with five birdies, sixteen bogeys, and one double.  Seems reasonable to me.  The Masters web site highlight of the day on the hole was Colin Morikawa driving it a few yards short of the greenside bunker, and hitting a nice pitch up into the slope to leave himself five feet for his 3.


I agree with Jim S that precise distance control is harder for the pros than it used to be, because the gaps between clubs are so big now.  The problem is that precise distance control is just blind luck for 95% of golfers.  So, you can really only use it for one or two hole locations on a green at most, and you have to build a green that's easier to hit on the other side.  Another example of such a green is the 9th at Streamsong Red.  I have attempted this a few times:  8th at Pacific Dunes, 10th at Sebonack, 8th at CommonGround, 5th at The Renaissance Club.  We also did a little of it at Memorial Park on holes like the 5th and 8th.


What really makes the hole at Augusta scary is that if you go for it, short and long BOTH get a nasty bounce and roll away from the hole leaving a difficult shot back.

[JESII]

Agree on that last point Tom...but isn't that ok? Sure, people complain when they don't get what they want but the 8 handicapper that hit's it right at the pin and it bounces over should be able to make a 5 fairly well. That's not a desirable outcome for the Tour guys so they need to do everything they can to make a 4 after the poor wedge but if you've simply given me a 40 footer for birdie (because you're concerned about too severe of a location) how do I feel the pain of a not-quite-good-enough wedge?


Also agree that hole locations matter. Really is the point of this thread I guess. These four holes, and their position in the round, really work to create...I'm failing to come up with the word, but volatility is close. Ups and downs...flow? Not really. I feel like these hole locations were/are chosen to enhance what you said earlier...a couple birdies out of the box (#1 was in a bowl), then survive for an hour, then make a couple birdies, then survive 10, 11 and 12...then sprint to the finish.

[Ted Sturges]

Those holes have always been hard . . . even #3, because the green is so odd and hard to hold.


When you see runs from guys at the rear of the field, they get off to a hot start on #1 and #2, and then go on a tear through 7-8-9.  I have this thing in my head that the winner usually birdies the 9th on Sunday -- you have to be dialed in to hit it close there -- and sure enough, Matsuyama was the only one of the leaders who made 3 on Sunday.

Watching the players struggle on #3 on Sunday affirmed to me that we don't need 8,000 yard long courses.  The answer to challenging the world's best players is through the subtleties of architecture.


TS

[Kyle Harris]

I’ve felt that forcing precise distance control is really the way to challenge today’s tour pros
The equipment and swingS produce bigger distance gaps and much less of a “dialed in” distance For many players.


That 3rd hole location and the annual difficulty of the shallow/angled approach on 12 make them crazy

This but you need to add in the extra element of uneven lies to make each shot both unique and unexpected.

[Tom_Doak]

Watching the players struggle on #3 on Sunday affirmed to me that we don't need 8,000 yard long courses.  The answer to challenging the world's best players is through the subtleties of architecture.

As Mr. Dye once said about Pinehurst #2 . . . those greens really aren't that subtle.


The problem is more that most TV viewers don't like to watch guys playing defensively.

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