Discovered vs Designed - Which types are generally regarded as the best ones!

[Ira Fishman]

Found or built?

Lahinch 5
Ballybunion Old 11
Royal Dornoch 14
Old Mac 7
CPC 9
NB 13

The 7th at Old Macdonald was definitely built -- the green is a 15- or 20-foot cut!  All of that material is out on the 6th and 7th fairways now.


I'm only guessing, but my guess is that the 9th at Cypress Point had more shaping than most realize.  I think the green was built by excavating the front bunker, and I wouldn't be shocked if the one flatter deck in the fairway @ 175 yards off the tee was shaped as well.


I've always found it interesting that the earthwork done on the 11th at Ballybunion is never mentioned in discussing the hole.  That two-tiered landing area in the fairway is anything but natural.  Not sure about the green complex, but I'd call that hole built, albeit built from a dramatic starting point.

That covers 3 of the posed holes. What about Lahinch 5, RD 14, and NB 13? And I will throw in two of my favorites for fun: The Island Club (now) 6 and Pac Dunes 16.


Ira

[Neil Regan]

Neil:  So the fairway decks on 11 at Ballybunion are the result of quarry works, and *not* someone trying to build a landing area in the right place for that hole?

Tom,


I don’t know that.
I’m not sure anybody does, for sure.
But I would bet that yes, the shelves pre-date the golf.
There was mining out there, and as you know, there are similar shapes to the 11th fairway elsewhere on the course.
And given that the club had little money to spend on on even much smaller shaping projects,
I doubt very much they would have cut those big shelves on 11 and 13.


I know they spent very little money on the course until recent times,
and what they did spend was very carefully budgeted down to the pound
 and spent very slowly over decades.


Simpson’s 1936 brief comments on the hole makes no mention of the fairway steps, but do recommend £13 of changes.


Here are Simpson’s words, as recently transcribed and published in the club newsletter by Club Secretary Aidan Hanrahan:


Hole 6 (11th) A new back tee, behind Green 5 (10th hole today). The small bunker on the left entrance of the
green is admirably placed, but the protecting wall is unsightly and generally faulty, and requires to
be re-modelled. The shallow grass hollow on the left of the green, should be widened, deepened
and continued another 5 yards.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Found or built?

Lahinch 5
Ballybunion Old 11
Royal Dornoch 14
Old Mac 7
CPC 9
NB 13

The 7th at Old Macdonald was definitely built -- the green is a 15- or 20-foot cut!  All of that material is out on the 6th and 7th fairways now.


I'm only guessing, but my guess is that the 9th at Cypress Point had more shaping than most realize.  I think the green was built by excavating the front bunker, and I wouldn't be shocked if the one flatter deck in the fairway @ 175 yards off the tee was shaped as well.


I've always found it interesting that the earthwork done on the 11th at Ballybunion is never mentioned in discussing the hole.  That two-tiered landing area in the fairway is anything but natural.  Not sure about the green complex, but I'd call that hole built, albeit built from a dramatic starting point.

That covers 3 of the posed holes. What about Lahinch 5, RD 14, and NB 13? And I will throw in two of my favorites for fun: The Island Club (now) 6 and Pac Dunes 16.


Ira

Ira, I tried to answer Lahinch 5 on a previous post: The only thing that might have been done there is to very slightly fill the green site if even that.


I think this comes back down to definition: Even on great sites, most holes have to build their green sites to some extent. This can range from stripping and doing very minor reshaping of what is there up to fairly major works of the green plus surrounds. If all you are doing is creating 18 green sites, shaping tees in to natural areas and possibly removing the odd small mound between tee and green, what does that course count as?


6 at The Island will have had very limited works. Very minor around the green with the only fairway works possibly being a lowering of a dune at the blind carry to create the saddle. But that last part is speculation. It may be completely natural. The rest of the fairway certainly is.


13 at North Berwick - probably some small work at the green.


14 at Royal Dornoch - can’t remember the detail so not clear if it looks like they topped off a dune to create the green or whether they built up. Probably both to balance cut and fill.

[Ira Fishman]

Ally, thanks. Very interesting.

[Tom_Doak]

Ally, thanks. Very interesting.

Ira:


I was trying to identify the ones that I thought might be built.  I've always assumed the other three were natural, including Foxy:  there are several other similar flat-topped ridges that jut toward the fairway a bit short of the green, so I just assumed it was another.  But it could well be modified.

[Ira Fishman]

Tom,


Thanks for the clarification. What about PD16? I often pair it with The Island Club 6 because of the turn of holes and the terrific rumpled fairways.


Ira

[Ira Fishman]

Tom,


Thanks for the clarification. What about PD16? I often pair it with The Island Club 6 because of the turn of holes and the terrific rumpled fairways.


Ira

Never mind. I see you said PD16 was discovered in your first post.