What was the first 7,000 yard course?

[Matt_Cohn]

Anyone know?

[Ally Mcintosh]

No idea.


All I can add to the conversation is that out of The Open rota courses, Carnoustie was always by far the longest. When all the others sat around 6,900 yards (mid-eighties), it was at 7,250 yards.

[Adrian_Stiff]

First Open Champ course
1936 - Hoylake was 7078 yards, just checked the programme.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Interesting question...do not know answer but I just looked at the first "top 100" list ever published...Golf Digest's Top 100 "Toughest" courses published in 1966 (and updated in 1967).  The 1966 list has about 75 courses of 7000 yards or more, and literally 6 are listed as exactly 7000 yards (which makes me a bit suspicious).  1967 list has about 90 courses at 7000 or higher.  Opening dates not on either list.


Longest on either list (subject to transcription errors as this info not in digital form):


1966/1967:
Coral Ridge (FL) 7280/not on '67
Pleasant Valley** (MA) 7303/7333
Runaway Brook** (MA) (became The International later)  8040/8040
Blue Hills** (MO) 7410/7410
Concord Monster* (NY) 7600/7672
Fairway Farms (TX) 7352/7352
Champions-Cyp Ck* (TX) 7250/6679 (strange??)
Hazeltine Natl (MN)** not on '66/7410
Bellerive (MO)* not on '66/7363
Dubs Dread (KS)** not on '66/8101 (Da Champ!!)


* means I have played from all the way back...quite a long time ago
** means I played more recently from much shorter tees

[Niall C]

It might be an idea to have a scan through Ed Oden's excellent course plans thread. Unfortunately this laptop won't allow me to see the photos/plans on Ed's thread but I'd sent him one on the Machrie (1891) and IIRC Willie Campbell had planned a par 6 hole which I think would have taken the total yardage over 7K. I'm not sure the par 6 was ever implemented. Someone may want to check Ed's thread to see how dodgy my memory actually is.

In 1903 Willie Fernie designed the Troon municipal course (now called Lochgreen) and the advance press had it at 7,600 yards. When it subsequently opened it was given as 6,736 yards so possibly reduced the length or the original reports were based on a typo. It was certainly claimed to be the longest course in the country at that time. Bear in mind that was shortly after the advent of the Haskell so the arms war would have just have been cranking up and I'd imagine longer courses would have followed shortly thereafter.

One thing to note though, they didn't measure courses the same way back then. Now we measure from the back of the tee (or is it 2 yards in ?) to the middle of the green. Back then I think it was the back of the tee to the back of the green.

Niall

[James Boon]

3 or 4 years ago, as I was then the archivist for Hollinwell (Notts Golf Club) I was approached by someone called Eugene Chan doing research into the length of golf courses in the Golden Age. This was because Hollinwell has always been a long course (6,770 in 1935 then 6,931 in 1957, reaching 7,020 in 1981 for example). Later on he passed on some of his research to us as follows:


Carnoustie 7,200yds in 1937
Oakland Hls 7,037 in 1937
Holston Hls 6,993 in early 1930s
Oakmont 6,965 in 1927
Portmarnock 6,958 in 1938
Riviera 6,910 in 1929


I think I still have his email address somewhere so could ask if he got any further with this if that helps?


Cheers,


James

[Sean_A]

1932 - Princes might have been over 7000. Was different then.

I seem to recall Princes in 1932 was well over 7000, but still yielded record scoring?

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

1932 - Princes might have been over 7000. Was different then.

I seem to recall Princes in 1932 was well over 7000, but still yielded recording scoring?

Ciao

Sean - I thought that too but when I checked the 1932 stats it was still under 7.

[Richard Fisher]

Yep. Princes given as 6890 off the championship tees in the Open Programme for 1932. 

[Jim Sherma]

Hershey CC was over 7000 as built in 1930 by Maurice McCarthy. It is listed as just under 7000 now due to some minor routing changes. 1940 PGA was played at 7017yds according to the  official program.

[AChao]

Years ago, I was emailing with someone who knew a ton about everything golf and he mentioned Colonial CC about 50 years ago (or more) as being extremely long back then.  I don't know if it was 7,000 yards then, but it might have been close.

[Sven Nilsen]

1917 - Lochmoor Club (Detroit, MI)

[Tom_Doak]

1917 - Lochmoor Club (Detroit, MI)

Sven:


Did they promote the heck out of having the longest course?


I am not surprised the date is so far back.  Years from now, when someone wonders when the first 8000 yard course was built, not many people will guess it was in 1963.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I recall from Daniel Wexler's "Missing Links" that Albert Lasker's private layout, Mill Road Farm was estimated to be over 7,000 yards when it opened in 1926 or 7.  It was so private, exact data was always scarce.

[Sven Nilsen]

Tom:


I’ll have to check any articles I have, but I don’t recall any promotion.


Jeff:


Mill Road Farm was listed as 7,001 yards in the 1931 Annual Guide.


Sven

[Peter Flory]

I wouldn't be surprised if it were Mill Road Farm, at least for the US.

I know that is was 7,001 yards in 1940... because of the attached scorecard.  But I'm not sure if it was that way earlier than that.  Also, for a long while, they only had one set of tees.  So I would argue that this was the longest playing course in the history of golf on average- since all players played it from 7,000. 



Not dated- seems slightly more modern than the one above though



For America, some of the golf almanacs listed all of the courses per state.  They may have included yardages as well.

[Matt_Cohn]

One thing to note though, they didn't measure courses the same way back then. Back then I think it was the back of the tee to the back of the green.

That's oddly reasonable. It's not like I measure my height from the middle of my feet to the middle of my head.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I was always aware that RTJ measured tip to tip, and here I thought it was so some of his courses could be called "7,000 yard championship courses" when in reality they were in the 6,900 range.  Or, his construction companies charged clients by the yard!


Maybe he was playing straight the entire time.....which oddly I never considered.


Either way, it appears I may have actually given the right answer here for once!  Whoo Hoo!

[Sven Nilsen]

Lochmoor is the earliest on record in the US.

There were a bunch of 7,000 yard courses before or around the same time as Mill Road Farm, Lochmoor noted above being one.


Others included:


Hollywood GC (NJ) - noted as 7,200 yards in the 1920 Annual Guide
Riverside Municipal (IN) - noted as 7,335 yards in the 1925 Annual Guide
Davenport CC (IA) - noted as 7,200 yards in the 1926 Annual Guide
Roselle GC (NJ) - noted as 7,300 yards in the 1928 Annual Guide
Laconia CC (NH) - noted as 7,200 yards in the 1928 Annual Guide
Taconic CC (MA) - noted as 7,200 yards in the 1929 Annual Guide
Meadow Lake G&CC (TN) - noted as 7,205 yards in the 1931 Annual Guide
Swannano GC (VA) - noted as 7,186 yards in the 1931 Annual Guide


A couple noted as over 7,000 yards in the Annual Guides that I have my doubts about:


Swope Park
Tuscumbia
Skokie

[Thomas Dai]

7,000 yds back in the 1920's/30's that would be akin to something like 10,000 yds with the equipment elite male players use these days. Or maybe it's the fitness routines elite players now undertake!?
atb

[Niall C]

David


By that reckoning you seem to be suggesting that scratch golfers/pro's in the 1920's were hitting their drives a little over 200 yards which certainly wasn't the case. For a start were the courses watered as much and did they get the same amount of run they get today ? I'm not sure what number I'd put on it but suggest it would be a good bit less than 10,000 yards although it doesn't really matter too much unless you are anxious to peg play to a certain score.


Niall

[Peter Flory]

With 1920 golf clubs and replica balls (1.68" version), I feel like a 6,400 yard course is about as tough as a 7,200 yard course with modern tech.  At this point, I'm playing about 25% of my golf throughout the season with the vintage equipment, so I'm getting a good sense. 

If my feel is correct, that would make a 7,000 yard course in 1920 equal to about a little less than a 7,900 yard course now.

And that is the exact proportion to how far I carry the old driver and ball vs the new tech- about 240 vs 270. 

Tommy Armour shot a 69 at Mill Road Farm, and that was a course that got some watering specifically to limit the distance that players could get off the tee.  So it was obviously doable at 7,000 yards, just very difficult.  I'm sure that he has some fairway woods into par 4s and played the par 5s as 3-shotters.