[Mike_Young]

Thanks for the replies.  From my point of view it tells me they really haven't contributed to the game. 
I also learned:
Lot of people are looking for such deals that many courses would not want them as customers anyway.  They are the types that pay for nine and then play 18...or either bitch so much it isn't worth it.
Discount is not the correct word and Big box is.Most people seem to think the Big Box golf stores began from lack of service by smaller pro shops when it was the vendors that took the bait and were forced to sell to the Big Boxes via court cases.  So many golf companies became public and had to show growth each year vs. a company like Ping that remained private.Not many golfers realize the local shop can usually match the pricing of the Big box and will be compensated by his rep and company.Plenty of local places accept trade-ins.The course we have accepts trade-ins when someone makes a purchase but it has to be a shop credit.We also have a flightscope and do fittings.

[Daryl David]

2. TRADE INS!!! When a customer buys a new club(s) at Golf Galaxy or the PGA Superstore or the like, the store provides a ready-made vehicle for disposing of the customer's old clubs, even if only for a few dollars.  Green grass pro shops, with few exceptions, don't provide that service, and that's a big deal.

Not sure about other areas, but most of the “green grass” pro shops where I live have a mobile trade in unit that comes 3 or 4 times a season. They set up near the range just like a demo day and accept used clubs for trade in. The value is then put on your club account. Very easy process and the guy in the tent gives you the PGA website value price that becomes a credit at your club. I assume they get a small percentage from the club. The trade in program results in a lot of sales in the pro shop that would normally go to the local big box.

Daryl,

That's a great program, and the first time I've heard of it.  That's a good example of nimble management, too.

Here is the company that one of my clubs uses.


https://www.igolfvalueguide.com/green-grass

[Padraig Dooley]

Golf Galaxy and it’s like has definitely contributed to golf. 


Where else are you going to be able to shop 30 different iron set and 100 wedges and 100 putters and 20 drivers and 50 golf shoes?  Is there a pro shop anywhere in the world with a selection that rivals even the most poorly stocked Golf Galaxy? 


This thread sounds like a cab driver complaining about Uber.

If the end goal is to get the golfer playing better there is many many pro shops that are better equipped than any Golf Galaxy. If the end goal is to sell clubs there are none. Which does the customer want? To play better or to buy a club?

[John Kavanaugh]

I can’t even go in a box store without getting pissed off by some counter jockey fat shaming me with his gentle nudges into the “helper” section. You’d think I asked him where the salad bar was when I’m looking at 9 deg drivers. I also have an instant gratification issue which can’t be met with the long lead time required by local pros. The internet solves both issues.


Before Covid I could get custom clubs in my hands in three days. That has not recovered.

[Tim Martin]

I can’t even go in a box store without getting pissed off by some counter jockey fat shaming me with his gentle nudges into the “helper” section. You’d think I asked him where the salad bar was when I’m looking at 9 deg drivers. I also have an instant gratification issue which can’t be met with the long lead time required by local pros. The internet solves both issues.


Before Covid I could get custom clubs in my hands in three days. That has not recovered.

The one thing I’ve noticed with the Big Box stores is that they aren’t all consumed with trying to up sell you into an after market shaft for a driver. When the proprietary shaft for a $400 driver needs an upgrade for a 15 handicapper someone is getting over and it’s not the guy that just bought the club.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Talked to my son today, and he mentioned the trade in thing as a reason to buy big box, although he typically doesn't.


Beacuse he is a shaft nerd and club fitting fiddler, he goes to off course, but small independent guys who will fit you for free if you buy the clubs there.  So, not all lost business is to big box corporations, some of it is to more nimble golf pros off course.


So, whether taking a trade in or actually offering an additional value, these guys are getting the business, which many club shops didn't.

[Thomas Dai]

Trade-ins were once commonplace with pro-shops usually undertaking such transaction prior to discount stores appearing. Not sure of the specific details or what caused it but there was/is then a period in the U.K. when many pro-shops weren’t keen on accepting trade-ins. Something to do with paperwork and administration in relation to tax/vat I believe. The discount shops seemed to be able to avoid this maybe through economies of scale on chain store admin or perhaps by giving lower trade-in prices?
Atb

[Ben Sims]

I can't think of a single situation where government intervention into the marketplace, in-advance, justifies preemptive intervention.

Steve,


This last bit smacks of a confirmation bias, echo chamber type comment made in the club bar. Unfortunately, my guess is you can probably think of a few if you try. There is a more than slight chance I’m missing your point. But pressed, I bet you’d agree that antitrust laws serve a purpose.

At any rate, I’m with Mike Young on this one. The very same issues are being faced by the bike and ski industry. And every jerry with screaming feet that buys his boots online or off the shelf from Christie’s only has himself to blame. The local shop probably sells it within a few bucks and fits it properly.

[John Kirk]

I also have an instant gratification issue which can’t be met with the long lead time required by local pros. The internet solves both issues.

I've bought a driver with a fancy custom shaft, tested against other choices, a couple of times.  The one that felt right to me was usually the right one.  I can pick up a driver, swing it a few times, and based on the price and perceived quality of the manufacturer, make a good choice.  I don't consider myself very susceptible to "psychological marketing".  Give me a driver with 10-10.5 degree loft, and a 50-60 gram shaft with a 6.0 stiffness, and I'll make it work.  A good one lasts 5-10 years in the bag.

One benefit to a big store?  You can usually find shoes in your size, which in my case (the popular 10.5 medium width) is valuable.

[John Kirk]

The purpose of big box stores is to destroy the small guys, so they can then raise prices with no competition.  The end stage of the "free market" is not "efficient pricing" but monopoly.  Mike is advocating for some sort of limit on the free market.

Since others disagreed with this comment, I'm letting you know I agree.  Of course you're right.  It's as plain as day.  The retail market is very oligopolistic these days.  In my opinion, it's a problem.

[jeffwarne]

Big box golf, Dollar General, Wal-mart, Lowes.
It comes down to whether you want one less local business in your area-or not.
No judgement here on what's right, but you're not going to have a locally owned convenience store or hardware store last real long, (or at least not as many as you could,) once a Home Depot or Dollar General(there must be a million of these)moves in.
The smaller low end green grass pro shops in more rural areas have all but given up selling clubs with the fast inventory turn/obsolescence the publicly held club manufacturers demand.
Some have hung tough but buying a $25000 Trackman, with an annual license fee to sell a low margin item makes little sense to them.

[Ian Mackenzie]

The purpose of big box stores is to destroy the small guys, so they can then raise prices with no competition.  The end stage of the "free market" is not "efficient pricing" but monopoly.  Mike is advocating for some sort of limit on the free market.

Since others disagreed with this comment, I'm letting you know I agree.  Of course you're right.  It's as plain as day.  The retail market is very oligopolistic these days.  In my opinion, it's a problem.

Cue John Mellencamp...."Ain't that America...."...;-)


Walgreens takes out the local pharmacist.
Best Buy takes out the local appliance and stereo guy.
Walmart takes out, well, everything.
Home Depot takes out the local hardware store.
Dick's Sporting Goods takes out the local sports shop.
Warby Parker is taking out a lot of optometrists.
VistaPrint killed a lot of small local printers.
Krogers/Whole Foods/PubLix killed the local grocery store.


You could fill pages and pages of examples like this.


What makes people here think that golf is somehow different? It's not....except that it's MUCH less significant.

[John Kavanaugh]

Golf is different because of the private exclusive nature of the membership structure. Something younger golfers hate and look for every avenue to destroy.


A perfect example that we are all familiar with is Sand Hills. It only takes one dude.

[Bernie Bell]

Most US golf is not exclusive or private.  The same people here complain about local government providing golf at cost (or below cost) to the citizens, and also The Man providing golf equipment to golfers at a lower cost.  Both of these things, IMO, are good for golfers.  (Though I personally don't favor below cost.)


In my experience, which may not be representative, rural people who depend on goods provided by Walmart are quite grateful to have one nearby.  Prices are lower and selection is better and more reliable. 

[Steve Lapper]

The purpose of big box stores is to destroy the small guys, so they can then raise prices with no competition.  The end stage of the "free market" is not "efficient pricing" but monopoly.  Mike is advocating for some sort of limit on the free market.

Since others disagreed with this comment, I'm letting you know I agree.  Of course you're right.  It's as plain as day.  The retail market is very oligopolistic these days.  In my opinion, it's a problem.

Cue John Mellencamp...."Ain't that America...."...;-)


Walgreens takes out the local pharmacist.
Best Buy takes out the local appliance and stereo guy.
Walmart takes out, well, everything.
Home Depot takes out the local hardware store.
Dick's Sporting Goods takes out the local sports shop.
Warby Parker is taking out a lot of optometrists.
VistaPrint killed a lot of small local printers.
Krogers/Whole Foods/PubLix killed the local grocery store.


You could fill pages and pages of examples like this.


What makes people here think that golf is somehow different? It's not....except that it's MUCH less significant.

   And in each and every case you cite above, end pricing to consumers has fallen. All compete against Amazon and/or Overstock, et.al. Do Big Boxes negatively impact local or even destroy the small guys? Yes they do.


 Do they then create monopolies and raise prices? No, they do not. In fact in some cases it's precisely the opposite.


  For example, Luxottica is the world's largest eyeglass company. It sought to create a monopoly, raising and preserving prices throughout the sub-license brands it made and sold. Having worn glasses since childhood,  pairs would cost hundreds of dollars. Along came Warby Parker and now I pay 25%, at most, of that cost. The world's business directory is full of these examples.


  Big boxes help both the golf consumer and the golf manufacturing community. They expand and make accessible a far larger range of equipment and softgoods to more and more people.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Golf is different because of the private exclusive nature of the membership structure. Something younger golfers hate and look for every avenue to destroy.


A perfect example that we are all familiar with is Sand Hills. It only takes one dude.

Sam's Club mandates a membership.
CostCo demands a membership.


 


Sure, it's less, but so are UK golf memberships.
Membership at a northern Scotland golf course is not THAT much more than CostCo...;-)...and at least you can play unlimited golf versus buying unlimited amount of toothpaste and "Bagel Dogs" that you'll never eat...;-)

[John Kirk]

   And in each and every case you cite above, end pricing to consumers has fallen. All compete against Amazon and/or Overstock, et.al. Do Big Boxes negatively impact local or even destroy the small guys? Yes they do.


 Do they then create monopolies and raise prices? No, they do not. In fact in some cases it's precisely the opposite.


  For example, Luxottica is the world's largest eyeglass company. It sought to create a monopoly, raising and preserving prices throughout the sub-license brands it made and sold. Having worn glasses since childhood,  pairs would cost hundreds of dollars. Along came Warby Parker and now I pay 25%, at most, of that cost. The world's business directory is full of these examples.


  Big boxes help both the golf consumer and the golf manufacturing community. They expand and make accessible a far larger range of equipment and softgoods to more and more people.

After serious thought, I have determined the proper response.

Once a corporation becomes publicly traded, it becomes beholden to the shareholders, and yadda, yadda, yadda, the rich get richer.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm having a hard time following, while places like Wal-Mart and other big box stores do have some of the properties of being a Monopoly, like high barriers of entry and making it hard on competition, they do it via super low prices, not visa-versa. They certainly don't have the luxury of possibly the two most important tenets of Monopolies 101...

- Profit maximizer: a monopoly maximizes profits. Due to the lack of competition a firm can charge a set price above what would be charged in a competitive market, thereby maximizing its revenue

- Price maker: the monopoly decides the price of the good or product being sold. The price is set by determining the quantity in order to demand the price desired by the firm (maximizes revenue).

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-economics/chapter/introduction-to-monopoly/#:~:text=A%20monopoly%20market%20is%20characterized,single%20seller%2C%20and%20price%20discrimination.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I'm having a hard time following, while places like Wal-Mart and other big box stores do have some of the properties of being a Monopoly, like high barriers of entry and making it hard on competition, they do it via super low prices, not visa-versa. They certainly don't have the luxury of possibly the two most important tenets of Monopolies 101...

- Profit maximizer: a monopoly maximizes profits. Due to the lack of competition a firm can charge a set price above what would be charged in a competitive market, thereby maximizing its revenue

- Price maker: the monopoly decides the price of the good or product being sold. The price is set by determining the quantity in order to demand the price desired by the firm (maximizes revenue).

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-economics/chapter/introduction-to-monopoly/#:~:text=A%20monopoly%20market%20is%20characterized,single%20seller%2C%20and%20price%20discrimination.

And, without a Chinese supply chain, WalMart would be much less relevant.


Kills me how a quintessentially American successful company like WalMart, and all the cliches that go with it, is really a distribution surrogate for its Chinese manufacturing partners.


WalMart may employ 1,000,000+ people in the US. But, how many jobs did it actually kill by making 60%+ of its products in Asia?


Golf? Pfft...


It's a zit on the ass of a mosquito compared to what Apple, WalMart and other "American" companies pull off on behalf of "creating shareholder value".


That's worth ranting about.


Golf? Not so much.

[David_Elvins]

I have seen most of the replies here and I think most have missed the point.


Big box stores have been awesome for golf because they have let golf courses focus more on golf. 


We have had a massive explosion in quality golf courses over the last 25 years and the growth of big golf stores over this time is not a coincidence.


I have an old set of irons 'made' by the pro at a top 5 golf course.  Nice for sentimental reasons but they are pretty crap. 


Its depressing to think the people used to have to factor in the quality of the pro shop into which golf course they joined.


Its completely unrealistic to expect golf clubs to carry the range of clubs that people expect and it would be a significant financial burden on golf clubs to do so.


Let golf clubs concentrate on golf a d
Let retail professionals focus on retail.

[John Kirk]

I've made a couple of comments that are walking the fine line between economic and political commentary.  I apologize.  This kind of kidding around can get testy in no time.

Let's be careful here.  It's an interesting subject, but can easily cause grief.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I have seen most of the replies here and I think most have missed the point.


Big box stores have been awesome for golf because they have let golf courses focus more on golf. 


We have had a massive explosion in quality golf courses over the last 25 years and the growth of big golf stores over this time is not a coincidence.


I have an old set of irons 'made' by the pro at a top 5 golf course.  Nice for sentimental reasons but they are pretty crap. 


Its depressing to think the people used to have to factor in the quality of the pro shop into which golf course they joined.


Its completely unrealistic to expect golf clubs to carry the range of clubs that people expect and it would be a significant financial burden on golf clubs to do so.


Let golf clubs concentrate on golf a d
Let retail professionals focus on retail.

While I want to agree with this, I just can't completely...;-)


Perhaps, David, if you are referring to golf equipment (Drivers, FW woods, hybrids, irons, wedges), I can totally see that point.
And, of course, this discussion bifurcates to the "private/public" golf course and shop business models.


But, for clothing (shirts, jackets, shorts, pants, hats) the golf shop is the MUCH better choice for many. Plus, There are clothing brands that you just can't buy at the Big Box guys. Online? Yes, of course. But that opens up new cans or worms in this debate.


Or, are you a "logoed-shirt guy"? Do you care?


I buy very little golf equipment at pro shops. I do buy a TON of "soft goods", however.


Maybe I'm helping you make your point...

[David_Tepper]

" Big boxes help both the golf consumer and the golf manufacturing community. They expand and make accessible a far larger range of equipment and softgoods to more and more people."

There is much more to golf gear sales than just clubs and clothes. There are shoes, golf bags of various types, golf travel bags, push carts, training aids, range finders, books, etc. There are very, very few green grass shops that have both the physical space and the financial clout to stock a representative inventory of those kinds of items.   

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