[Peter Pallotta]

Among your favourites, which work as 'whole courses' better than they do a collection of 'individual holes'? To put it differently: which of your favourites do you remember and value more as 'a wonderful set of 18' than for their 'many excellent golf holes'?
And, what sets those courses apart? Why is the whole sometimes greater than the sum of its parts? 

[Duncan Cheslett]

Sometimes it is the sheer ambience and atmosphere of a course that endears itself, rather than the mechanics of each hole.


Alwoodley is a perfect example of the ones I’ve played.

[Thomas Dai]

Peace and tranquility over hustle and bustle. Rural and rustic over manicured urban.
Atb

[Joe Bausch]

Peace and tranquility over hustle and bustle. Rural and rustic over manicured urban.
Atb

Funny, I was just thinking about why I enjoyed my day at Foxburg a handful of years ago.  You nailed it TD!

A fairly recent article on Foxburg:

https://www.wpga.org/nws/2021/210211-foxburg-country-club-the-oldest-course-in-continuous-use-in-us.html?fbclid=IwAR2Ym7nQ5hY3flHIZvWbHqb4oshjt6pHKlY1tChTFAiOki3CxLyckqsmRkI

And how my eyes and camera saw the course back in 2016:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Foxburg/index.html

[Tom_Doak]

There are some people who want to assign a lot of points for concepts like "balance" or "variety", but I cannot think of a course that I rated higher for variety if I didn't like most of the golf holes.  Rye is one where I add points for variety -- it uses the dune ridges in a lot more ways than most links do.  For me there are a couple of clunker holes after the turn, but it has its share of world-class holes, too.


I am more inclined to agree with Duncan and Thomas here; I will only overlook a few plain holes if there is something special on tap.  Himalayan GC or Brancaster might not win a hole by hole against many top-100 courses, but they are unique places and they do have a few great golf holes, too.

[Ira Fishman]

Peter,


I have several favorites that meet your Sum concept I think: St. George’s Hill mentioned in the other thread, Bandon Trails, and Brora. I even think PH2 might fit. Do not get me wrong: they all have many very good holes, but other than 10 at St. George’s Hill and 3 at PH2, I do not think that they have truly great holes. However, I have a high bar. Among my favorite courses, only a few have multiple great holes.


For me, the converse might be true. Royal Dornoch has several world class holes yet I found the Sum to be a bit lacking. The same for Ballybunion Old. Both are 10s on the Doak Scale so perhaps my views are idiosyncratic. But then again, that is true for all of us (see hundreds of threads about rankings and ratings).


Ira

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Ira.

My underlying assumption here is that it is rare for a quality golf course to be greater than the sum of its parts. I wasn't asking about courses with more than too many banal golf holes that somehow transcend that limitation and, as a whole, are nonetheless special.

I was interested instead in courses -- like those you mention -- that do have a few (or even several) excellent golf holes, and yet are not remembered & valued for that reason, i.e. golf courses where the 'whole-course-playing-experience' is not determined or comprised of or limited to/by the specialness of individual holes or strategies or shots.

From reading only, a course like Garden City comes to mind.

[Mike_Young]

Pebble Beach...

[Mike_Trenham]

Harbortown Golf Links

[JMEvensky]

Pebble Beach...

First course I thought of but then re-read Peter's premise. I think most remember the "many excellent holes" rather than the "wonderful set of 18".

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks, Ira.

My underlying assumption here is that it is rare for a quality golf course to be greater than the sum of its parts. I wasn't asking about courses with more than too many banal golf holes that somehow transcend that limitation and, as a whole, are nonetheless special.

I was interested instead in courses -- like those you mention -- that do have a few (or even several) excellent golf holes, and yet are not remembered & valued for that reason, i.e. golf courses where the 'whole-course-playing-experience' is not determined or comprised of or limited to/by the specialness of individual holes or strategies or shots.

From reading only, a course like Garden City comes to mind.

Using this premise, I would have thought quite a few modern courses fit in to this bracket. Often, the consistency of excellent design, theme and style outweighs individual hole greatness (even if that greatness is there).


With older courses, I think of such places as Muirfield and Portmarnock: It’s as much to do with there being no weak link on one end whilst on the other end, the subtlety of the land and design often disguises the greatness of individual moments from those just passing through.

[Sean_A]

St Enodoc may fit this bill for me. It does have a few All England candidates and a few unusual holes. But to me how the course touches different features of the property is just as important. The routing visually touches base with Daymer Bay merging into Camel Estuary, Padstow Bay and eventually the Atlantic on several occasions...never allowing golfers to forget they are in Cornwall. The use of the adjacent farm for three holes which adds a completely different element to the round. The farm track, Himalaya Dune, Brea Hill, creek & church. Its seems as though these are stations to be visited on the journey of 18 holes. 

I have a similar reaction to Cavendish, albeit on a less dramatic site than St Enodoc.

I don't have the same feeling about Kington. This to me is a more cohesive design.  The holes merge together and form a whole that is interrupted by the conventions of golf.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think we are all using different definitions on this thread.


For me, it is usually the cohesive designs where this mostly applies. But I do agree with you Sean on St Enodoc: The journey adds very much to the overall valuation of the course.

[Brett Meyer]

On first thought, I'm definitely having an easier time coming up with courses where the whole is less than the sum of its parts than more...


Some of the courses mentioned above are interesting because to me, they show how when a course is excellent and very consistent, we might overlook how great some of the individual holes are. Ira Fishman mentions Pinehurst no. 2 and St. George's Hill. I think that they both fit this category. They're both very strong, consistent courses--among the few I've played that have no bad holes and arguably no indifferent ones.


But I also think that they both have great holes. The opener on no.2 may be the best that I've seen and the following two are world class. I think that at least 5, 8, and 14 are also among the best holes that I've played. Same at St. George's Hill. In addition to the aforementioned 10th hole, I'd note 8, 16, and 17 as great holes. Now they may not be on the same level as St. Enodoc 4 or Cypress Point 16, but almost nothing is. Very few courses--even great ones--have holes of this caliber.


But I think that we might overlook the greatness of some of these individual holes because it's true for both that the course overall is so strong and so consistent that that's the main thing we take away. There are a few great ones but they don't peak so far above the rest--the variance in the quality of the holes is still low and that's what we take away from the course. And I don't think that's wrong, but I do think that it may be causing us to overlook the greatness of some of the individual holes.


Some great courses clearly don't fit this category. They have great holes but higher variance. St. Enodoc, I think, is one. The 4th hole stands out, but there isn't another hole that I'd take above the no. 2 and St. George's Hill holes that I mentioned. And the weakest holes there are weaker than anything at no. 2 or St. George's Hill.




Of course as Sean Arble has mentioned, St. Enodoc may be greater than the sum of its parts for a different reason: that the course uses its diverse landscape in an especially interesting way.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Brett,


You are aligned with my point but stating it in a much clearer way: When the variance in quality is small between the “worst” hole and the “best” hole on a course, sometimes its greatness gets overlooked, and sometimes its great moments become less obvious.

[Mike_Young]

Pebble Beach...

First course I thought of but then re-read Peter's premise. I think most remember the "many excellent holes" rather than the "wonderful set of 18".

I don't know.  The setting is what comes away with so many as first thing to remember. IMHO

[Tom_Doak]

St Enodoc may fit this bill for me. It does have a few All England candidates and a few unusual holes. But to me how the course touches different features of the property is just as important. The routing visually touches base with Daymer Bay merging into Camel Estuary, Padstow Bay and eventually the Atlantic on several occasions...never allowing golfers to forget they are in Cornwall. The use of the adjacent farm for three holes which adds a completely different element to the round. The farm track, Himalaya Dune, Brea Hill, creek & church. Its seems as though these are stations to be visited on the journey of 18 holes. 

I have a similar reaction to Cavendish, albeit on a less dramatic site than St Enodoc.

Cruden Bay is another such course.  Also Royal Dornoch and Cypress Point, although most would argue that the minimum standard of golf holes there is much higher.

[archie_struthers]

 


Think that the very best courses flow and aren't just a random collection of great individual holes.  Peter are you asking for courses that have average holes but great ambiance? Because that's a different answer.

[Ira Fishman]

St Enodoc may fit this bill for me. It does have a few All England candidates and a few unusual holes. But to me how the course touches different features of the property is just as important. The routing visually touches base with Daymer Bay merging into Camel Estuary, Padstow Bay and eventually the Atlantic on several occasions...never allowing golfers to forget they are in Cornwall. The use of the adjacent farm for three holes which adds a completely different element to the round. The farm track, Himalaya Dune, Brea Hill, creek & church. Its seems as though these are stations to be visited on the journey of 18 holes. 

I have a similar reaction to Cavendish, albeit on a less dramatic site than St Enodoc.

Cruden Bay is another such course.  Also Royal Dornoch and Cypress Point, although most would argue that the minimum standard of golf holes there is much higher.

This is one of the reasons that I have Bandon Trails on my list. The variety of geography not as pronounced or dramatic as CPC, but the course does move through several different features.


Ira

[Peter Pallotta]

Archie -
I know great/famous/highly ranked courses only from reading, on here. Over the years, I've noted that when posters discuss some of their favourites, it's an almost laundry list of great golf holes, eg 'Holes 3, 6, 7, 9, 13, 15 and 16 are all world'. But with some other courses, the description/discussion is more 'generic' (for lack of a better word), eg 'The course weaves seamlessly in and out of the forest and the dunes, constantly posing different problems and questions, asking you to make strategic choices at every turn'.
From reading only, some great courses are 'hole bound' and some are 'whole' -- some seem to leave golfers remembering & highlighting individual golf holes while others seem to have them remembering & highlighting the golf course more. In these instances of quality-greatness, it's the golf course as a whole that works best of all.
I'm asking why folks think that might be the case.

[Richard Fisher]

Given that one of several GCA threads about Patric Dickinson has recently resurfaced, it's worth quoting in this context his concluding assessment of Muirfield in A Round of Golf Courses: 'I have not attempted to describe the links hole by hole; for it is of a very close texture, so to speak, the holes lead from one to another as in a fugue. The beauty of the 3rd lies in its relation to the 8th, etc'. PD also says of the Hon Company that 'there is a refreshing air of formal informality about this club, which is unique in golf'. Warm agreement from this quarter.

[Peter Pallotta]

Given that one of several GCA threads about Patric Dickinson has recently resurfaced, it's worth quoting in this context his concluding assessment of Muirfield in A Round of Golf Courses: 'I have not attempted to describe the links hole by hole; for it is of a very close texture, so to speak, the holes lead from one to another as in a fugue. The beauty of the 3rd lies in its relation to the 8th, etc'. PD also says of the Hon Company that 'there is a refreshing air of formal informality about this club, which is unique in golf'. Warm agreement from this quarter.

1. I'm not anywhere near as smart or as  lovely as Mr. Dickinson!
2. Why have I not yet bought a copy of A Round of Golf Courses?!
3. Apparently my favourite serious criticism is that by English poets with Classics degrees from Cambridge, writing decades before I was born!

Thanks much, Richard.

[David_Madison]

Pinehurst #2 would seem to fit this category perfectly.

[Sean_A]

St Enodoc may fit this bill for me. It does have a few All England candidates and a few unusual holes. But to me how the course touches different features of the property is just as important. The routing visually touches base with Daymer Bay merging into Camel Estuary, Padstow Bay and eventually the Atlantic on several occasions...never allowing golfers to forget they are in Cornwall. The use of the adjacent farm for three holes which adds a completely different element to the round. The farm track, Himalaya Dune, Brea Hill, creek & church. Its seems as though these are stations to be visited on the journey of 18 holes. 

I have a similar reaction to Cavendish, albeit on a less dramatic site than St Enodoc.

Cruden Bay is another such course.  Also Royal Dornoch and Cypress Point, although most would argue that the minimum standard of golf holes there is much higher.

I agree about Cruden Bay, but not Dornoch. That routing strikes me as a very secondary aspect of the design. I never had a feeling of what comes next except for the 3rd. For me Dornoch is more about the quality of holes and greens. Although, I think it does have a few dud holes. For me no, the whole is not greater than the sum of Dornoch's parts.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Setting time?
Kind of makes me wonder what would be the greatest course sited within an ugly setting?
Atb

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