Reciprocal Members Guest Rates WhatsApp Group - GB&I

[Duncan Cheslett]

A friend and fellow long distance Silloth member has today launched a WhatsApp group for members of GB&I Top 100 courses who are happy to host fellow group members at their club.


The intent is to build a network of fellow minded golfers and to facilitate play at other quality courses at a fraction of the normal green fee.


Most of us are far from being high net worth individuals and this offers the opportunity to play renowned courses that might otherwise be out of reach financially.


Already we have several dozen members from all over GB&I and from some very high profile clubs.


It is a completely free service and the only money to change hands will be the members’ guest fee before teeing off.


If any GCAers who are members of a top 100 club would like to be added to the group please send me your details on 07720 285376

[Marty Bonnar]

Whose ratings you using?
And, no Irish Courses? That seems a shame.
F.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Whose ratings you using?
And, no Irish Courses? That seems a shame.
F.

My bad.


The guys have been talking U.K. and I failed to pick up on the error.


The rating is this one;


https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-courses/britain-ireland


Post corrected accordingly

[Buck Wolter]

The First Rule of Fight Club....

[Daryl David]

The First Rule of Fight Club....

Exactly

[Robin_Hiseman]

Duncan


I doubt that 'Royal' Balfron will make the cut, but you and others fortunate enough to be a member of a Top 100 club are very welcome to be my guest. That is, if you feel yourselves able to play a course of such humble origins. I'm not holding out for an invite to the WhatsApp group...

[Marty Bonnar]

Rob,
We’re only #52 in Scotland, but if you’re happy with that, I’ll trade you a Ladybank for a Royal Balfron!
 
F.

[Thomas Dai]

This seems like a personal/private version of where the U.K. County Card system originated although now achievable thanks to internet technology.
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

Is it still poor form to discuss business on club grounds? If we celebrate ways to cut fees to clubs where we are members are there any barriers to gentlemanly behavior left? I have long thought that these types of societies are a slippery slope with unforeseen circumstances. Will clubs eventually raise all guest fees to reflect traffic? Someone is going to have to make up the losses.


Has the UK finally caught up with the US mentality of us vs them?


In all seriousness I was always lectured how the private clubs in the UK were open to everyone. If that was ever true this is nothing more than a clever scheme to undercut the rules of your club.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Rob,
We’re only #52 in Scotland, but if you’re happy with that, I’ll trade you a Ladybank for a Royal Balfron!
 
F.

Marty


It's a date...the next time I'm in Scotland with clubs in tow. The Royal dips below the rankings radar, but only because those lazy rankers haven't been there yet.

[archie_struthers]

 


Perhaps it changes with ranking and exclusivity but I've always felt a member should be able to bring guests at a nominal price. You want to promote guest play for various reasons.  One caveat the member must play with the group to get a discount! Unaccompanied guests can be an issue and every effort should be made to keep them to slack times on the tee sheet.


Not of the opinion that you should limit the number of rounds either , unless it's an obvious dodge of membership dues. If that's the case the member should be asked to leave.

[John Kavanaugh]

Perhaps it changes with ranking and exclusivity but I've always felt a member should be able to bring guests at a nominal price.

One of the true benefits of membership. I will miss it. On the bright side I won't miss the Frapps.

[Mark Chaplin]

Archie unaccompanied member guests is almost unheard of in the U.K. Whilst these ideas are great it is a difficult balance, at RCP the guest rate is a member benefit and the vast majority of guests are paid for by the member. Personally I’d be very wary of inviting a random unknown guest just so they could save £150. Obviously if someone I knew on this group vouched for Robin I’d invite him for a twilight round in November. 

[James Reader]

Duncan


I doubt that 'Royal' Balfron will make the cut, but you and others fortunate enough to be a member of a Top 100 club are very welcome to be my guest. That is, if you feel yourselves able to play a course of such humble origins. I'm not holding out for an invite to the WhatsApp group...

I wasn’t familiar with Balfron so had a look at the website.  Is it just me or is one of the photos in the gallery not like the others? 🤔 And it wasn’t just the blue sky in Glasgow that made me a little suspicious!


https://www.balfrongolfclub.co.uk/our-gallery

[Robin_Hiseman]

Duncan


I doubt that 'Royal' Balfron will make the cut, but you and others fortunate enough to be a member of a Top 100 club are very welcome to be my guest. That is, if you feel yourselves able to play a course of such humble origins. I'm not holding out for an invite to the WhatsApp group...

I wasn’t familiar with Balfron so had a look at the website.  Is it just me or is one of the photos in the gallery not like the others? 🤔 And it wasn’t just the blue sky in Glasgow that made me a little suspicious!


https://www.balfrongolfclub.co.uk/our-gallery

Yes, amazingly, there is a section of Balfron that looks uncannily like Winged Foot. The locals don't rate it, so I'm surprised to see them post a photo.

[James Reader]

I can understand how they must feel Robin.  Some Greens Committee Chairman with big ideas gets a famous architect in to redevelop a couple of holes and they build something like that. All very well as far as the holes themselves go, but it just doesn’t fit in with the rest of the course; ruins the flow.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Archie unaccompanied member guests is almost unheard of in the U.K. Whilst these ideas are great it is a difficult balance, at RCP the guest rate is a member benefit and the vast majority of guests are paid for by the member. Personally I’d be very wary of inviting a random unknown guest just so they could save £150. Obviously if someone I knew on this group vouched for Robin I’d invite him for a twilight round in November. 

Mark,

The original idea behind the group wasn’t “transactional” in the way you put it. It was more about putting together a network of like-minded golf enthusiasts who are members at quality courses and who love both hosting guests at their own club and visiting others.

We are already discovering how difficult it is to get the balance right and keep everyone happy. Great course doesn’t necessarily mean expensive or exclusive club, and vice versa.

For example, Silloth is unquestionably top 50 in GB&I. Green fees are £65 (£25 members guests) and full membership is £550 pa.

Stoke Park meanwhile, is nowhere near top 50 (or even top 100) yet green fees are well over £200 and annual membership costs several thousand.

How do you compare the merits of such wildly different offers and which is more worthy of a place at the table?

Happily, the people who have joined the group so far generally appear to be focused on quality golf and quality camaraderie rather than worrying unduly about whether they are getting better or worse value for money than the bloke they are reciprocating with.

A home and away Hillside v Silloth match is already being organised. It might even be extended to an informal “league” including Formby, West Lancs, and S&A. It would be lovely if similar initiatives got under way in other regions of the country.

All in all, it’s not a bad start for a WhatsApp group comprising largely of total strangers which only got going five days ago!



We shall see how it develops...

[Scott Warren]

If the people in the WhatsApp group love Silloth so much, why are they — the Silloth members in particular — conspiring to rob it of £40 revenue per round?


These types of associations can be dressed up a lot of different ways to seem like a positive thing, but essentially it’s gaming the system to save a few bucks.


And excluding people who belong to non-top 100 clubs so everyone in the group can feel a bit special as they tee up visits with strangers of other clubs deemed worthy in an effort to avoid paying the greenfees that form a key pillar to UK clubs’ business models.


I honestly don’t understand why you’d come on GCA and advertise that you’re doing this.

[Sean_A]

Scott

I see the situation a bit differently. It is akin to hosting guys you don't know as a favour to someone else. Or, perhaps you host a mate and he brings two strangers along. Or, perhaps you have a conversation with a fellow GCAer whom you've never met and decide to host him.

There seems to be an assumption that clubs lose money if a person is hosted rather than paying the visitor fee. An awful lot of golfers won't pay the visitor fee, but will happily pay a guest fee. Or, a visitor may be one and done, but as a guest play many times thereby increasing the chance of more spend for merch and f&b. There is also the word of mouth advertising to consider when a guest loves a place and let's people know on social media etc. Finally, maybe, just maybe, good friendships could develop from these blind date gigs.

Nothing is all good or bad. As is usual, it's down to members being sensible about guests in general.

There is one thing to consider. If green fees hadn't been pumped up to such a massive degree these past few decades there wouldn't be much of a reason for golfers to form and join these groups. On the other hand, if golfers hadn't become so obsessed with playing top 100 courses there wouldn't be much of a demand for these groups.

Ciao

[Adam Uttley]

I’m not sure it’s that simplistic, is it, either in spirit or financially?  There’s a spectrum of visitors ranging from the good friend of a member to the guy who knows nobody and turns up and pays full green fees.  Surely everything in the middle isn’t all bad and all of the same ilk?  The friend of a friend is not the same as getting on a course from someone who has “sold” their access. A group such as this sits somewhere in the middle, I would say.  Personally, I find it a richer experience playing with members who know a little about the history of the club and the course, regardless of what I’m paying.


Financially it isn’t so simplistic either.  The argument that revenue is lost only holds if the hosted player would have visited anyway and paid full price, or if they block a slot on the tee sheet of someone else paying full rack rate.  Clubs that are struggling are unlikely to have full tee sheets anyway. Many people in the UK can’t afford full rack rate, especially when they have been inflated recently due to overseas visitors, or even if they can, they perhaps have an annual budget for away golf. Playing at guest rates allows them to spread that spend across more clubs, most likely visiting places they wouldn’t have been otherwise, or perhaps even spending more.  I know I do.  Of course, green fees are only one type of spend. As a guest I am much more likely to spend more on hospitality and in the pro shop too.

I think for every case where a club has been deprived of income, there are others that a club has gained revenue it wouldn’t otherwise have had, which is why it is much more nuanced than the clubs being “robbed”.

If the people in the WhatsApp group love Silloth so much, why are they — the Silloth members in particular — conspiring to rob it of £40 revenue per round?


These types of associations can be dressed up a lot of different ways to seem like a positive thing, but essentially it’s gaming the system to save a few bucks.


And excluding people who belong to non-top 100 clubs so everyone in the group can feel a bit special as they tee up visits with strangers of other clubs deemed worthy in an effort to avoid paying the greenfees that form a key pillar to UK clubs’ business models.


I honestly don’t understand why you’d come on GCA and advertise that you’re doing this.

[Niall C]

I tend to agree with Scott although perhaps wouldn't say it so strongly. A lot of clubs organise reciprocal arrangements with other clubs and also arrange inter-club matches, and not just for the good players. They do that on the basis of what is good for the club and its members overall. My concern with this idea is that it doesn't take the body of club members into account. I'm not sure I'd be too happy if fellow members were regularly hosting visitors they didn't know. It just seems to go against the club ethos but then I think the club ethos has been eroded in other ways over the years.


Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

I tend to agree with Scott as well, though there are two sides to this and no one is wrong.


From an operators point of view most people will play your golf course just once, if they want to play your course then you are 'robbing' yourself if you don't get the full rate or close to full rate.


The counterpoint every club sets out their stall and price points, if the full rate is £150 but you can play for £50 with a member then that is what the club sets out as THE PRICE.


It is the club's fault (if there is a fault). Duncan is proud of Silloth and Cavendish so say's come and play at my course and I will play at yours...nothing wrong in that.


If I was the club I would be £150 full rate £100 with a member. Everyone operates differently.

[Jeff Schley]

This is just an informal Thousand Greens group for UK/Ireland golfers who want to network.  Polarizing topic for many as we can see on this very thread. However, TG does have thousands of members across the world already, so the naysayers are fighting a losing battle trying to keep others from participating.

[Scott Warren]

I tend to agree with Scott although perhaps wouldn't say it so strongly.

To be fair, I get this review quite a bit.

[John Kavanaugh]

This is just an informal Thousand Greens group for UK/Ireland golfers who want to network.  Polarizing topic for many as we can see on this very thread. However, TG does have thousands of members across the world already, so the naysayers are fighting a losing battle trying to keep others from participating.

It’s hardly a losing battle at the clubs that have already banned the practice. Even cargo shorts seem harmless on paper.