Reciprocal Members Guest Rates WhatsApp Group - GB&I

[Tim Martin]

This is just an informal Thousand Greens group for UK/Ireland golfers who want to network.  Polarizing topic for many as we can see on this very thread. However, TG does have thousands of members across the world already, so the naysayers are fighting a losing battle trying to keep others from participating.

It’s hardly a losing battle at the clubs that have already banned the practice. Even cargo shorts seem harmless on paper.

Thousand Greens says on their website “ members also build a community of like-minded highly successful people who become lifelong friends.” I guess you need to define “like-minded”, “highly successful”, and “lifelong friends”.   Considering Thousand Greens has only been around a few years the lifelong friends claim appears dubious at best.

[archie_struthers]

 


One of the great golf experiences of my life was traveling to Northern Ireland and playing some great courses in the world for a week. There had been a group of Portrush members who traveled to Atlantic City CC for years and would stay there for a week or two in the summer and just have a great time. They stayed in the dormitory above the clubhouse and ate and drank til the wee hours most nights. Played golf all day with the members and had various little competitions.


When we went to Ireland Ian Bamford, quite a golfer and just a fabulous guy was one of our hosts. Made it such a treat for us. We were treated not as interlopers but as treasured friends. It was the love of golf that bound us together. Perhaps a little corny in this day and age of instant gratification but a true fact for me!


I credit Leo Fraser and his family for realizing that golf was more than a game and promoting visitors and  to come enjoy their home of Atlantic City CC, a jewel in it's own right. But that's different than selling access for sure.

[Adam Lawrence]

I tend to agree with Scott although perhaps wouldn't say it so strongly.

To be fair, I get this review quite a bit.

I'd say you were pretty softly spoken for an Aussie. The only language on earth in which 'bastard' is a term of endearment.

[Jeff Schley]

This is just an informal Thousand Greens group for UK/Ireland golfers who want to network.  Polarizing topic for many as we can see on this very thread. However, TG does have thousands of members across the world already, so the naysayers are fighting a losing battle trying to keep others from participating.

It’s hardly a losing battle at the clubs that have already banned the practice. Even cargo shorts seem harmless on paper.

Thousand Greens says on their website “ members also build a community of like-minded highly successful people who become lifelong friends.” I guess you need to define “like-minded”, “highly successful”, and “lifelong friends”.   Considering Thousand Greens has only been around a few years the lifelong friends claim appears dubious at best.

I expected strong reactions as this topic polarizes some on there.  I take the glass half full approach to the platform, that it is for accompanied guest play (not unaccompanied), voluntary, and maintains confidentiality of members. It is another way to play courses you would ordinarily have to go through your club pro, charity auction, or societies like Outpost/New Club/Boxgroove/Eighty Club/others.....
Some clubs demand strict policies prohibiting members from being a part of these networks. Actively seek out violators etc. Although it appears the overwhelming majority have the don't ask/don't tell approach.
I don't demonize them, but understand the stance against.

[Niall C]

This is just an informal Thousand Greens group for UK/Ireland golfers who want to network.  Polarizing topic for many as we can see on this very thread. However, TG does have thousands of members across the world already, so the naysayers are fighting a losing battle trying to keep others from participating.

Jeff


I can only speak for myself but I don't think I'd necessarily say I'm trying to ban the practice but I wouldn't want it at any club I was a member of. At the moment I don't have a club but have been a member at one of the club's Duncan is a member of as well as several others. What I value in a club is a strong club ethos. I just think this undermines that.


Yes, like others I have hosted people I don't know as a favour to someone else and enjoyed the experience. But that has been very much on an occasional basis. My concern with this system that it could be used for providing access on an "industrial" scale. I appreciate that's not Duncan's intent but it could be for others.


Niall   

[Duncan Cheslett]

If the people in the WhatsApp group love Silloth so much, why are they — the Silloth members in particular — conspiring to rob it of £40 revenue per round?

That assumes that I would pay £150 to play Hillside (or wherever). I can assure you that I wouldn't. Therefore the club is better off than they otherwise would be.

I honestly don’t understand why you’d come on GCA and advertise that you’re doing this.

To help enlarge the network. It seems to have worked. A large proportion of group members are now GCAers!


Most people joining appear to want to enlarge their network of golf course enthusiasts rather than simply being out to access top courses at a discount.


Far more people on the group have so far offered games at their own club than have solicited games at others'.

[Tim Martin]

This is just an informal Thousand Greens group for UK/Ireland golfers who want to network.  Polarizing topic for many as we can see on this very thread. However, TG does have thousands of members across the world already, so the naysayers are fighting a losing battle trying to keep others from participating.

Jeff


I can only speak for myself but I don't think I'd necessarily say I'm trying to ban the practice but I wouldn't want it at any club I was a member of.

I don’t care who participates but I’m in the same camp as Niall. I’m not interested in mounting any sort of resistance nor do I feel like I’m fighting any battle at all let alone a losing one.

[Mark Mammel]

I wonder if the issue here is this: I suspect we all enjoy hosting guests that want to see the course we play, but it's important to know where they are coming from if not recommended by someone we know. I would be happy to host any GCA member at my club since even though it's not always clear who has a sense of humor; we are all proud golf geeks. I know it would be excellent. Does a site like 1000 Greens attract this group? I am an optimist, so joined and have hosted just one person, who was great to play with. But I understand the issue.

[Ryan Coles]

The very same members looking for more affordable visitor access at fellow top 100 clubs in most cases enjoy affordable membership fees at home by virtue of that Club’s greenfee income.


To erode that income for personal advancement is in my opinion not appropriate, in addition it is cooking the golden goose.



Via your membership, it’s highly likely you will already enjoy several reciprocal arrangements with similar stature Clubs. Ie the level of reciprocity is set out by the Club’s management. Any arrangements beyond that should be authorised.


It ends with the Club reducing access to members guests or increasing the price. Or not admitting members of modest means through fear they will do this or sublet access. A lose lose.

It is for the Club to decide if they are better off with the strangers guest fee or nothing. Not members deciding on its behalf blinkered by a personal motivation.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Ryan,


Both my clubs actively encourage members to bring along as many guests as possible at the special rate.


The truth is that the vast majority of members at any club seldom if ever bring guests along. Most golfers hardly ever play anywhere other than their own club and don’t really know anyone who plays anywhere else.


I will probably sign in around 20 or so guests at each of my clubs this year. For this I will undoubtedly be hailed as an example to others rather than as an abuser of the system.

[Thomas Dai]

Back in the day a very old established club where I was a member issued to each member at the start of the year a small piece of card with the members name on it. There were 4 columns and 13 lines with the top line being the columns title.
The Rules of the Club, as agreed by the members, permitted members to sign-in 6 guests one-at-a-time at a very small fee, like £5 when the full green-fee was circa £100. Members could also sign-in a further 6 guests again one-at-a-time at a guest-fee which was about £20. Any guest over and above the 6+6 was required to pay the full green-fee.
And the columns on the card? They were for the date, the guests name and signature and the initials of the pro/asst on duty. And the same guest could not be signed-in more than 4 times per year by the member concerned at any price. Seemed to work very well. Members were expected to respect and not abuse their club and they, their guests and the Clubs staff all knew were they stood.
Any attempt at abuse or accidental misuse was easily spotted and dealt with accordingly including if an individual guest were signed-in too often under the name of more than one member as the pro shop kept a cross-referenced  named and dated payments ledger.
I would have thought such an approach would be even easier to adopt in the modern computerised world.
Just a thought.
Atb

[Marty Bonnar]

Back in the day a very old established club where I was a member issued to each member at the start of the year a small piece of card with the members name on it. There were 4 columns and 13 lines with the top line being the columns title.
The Rules of the Club, as agreed by the members, permitted members to sign-in 6 guests one-at-a-time at a very small fee, like £5 when the full green-fee was circa £100. Members could also sign-in a further 6 guests again one-at-a-time at a guest-fee which was about £20. Any guest over and above the 6+6 was required to pay the full green-fee.
And the columns on the card? They were for the date, the guests name and signature and the initials of the pro/asst on duty. And the same guest could not be signed-in more than 4 times per year by the member concerned at any price. Seemed to work very well. Members were expected to respect and not abuse their club and they, their guests and the Clubs staff all knew were they stood.
Any attempt at abuse or accidental misuse was easily spotted and dealt with accordingly including if an individual guest were signed-in too often under the name of more than one member as the pro shop kept a cross-referenced  named and dated payments ledger.
I would have thought such an approach would be even easier to adopt in the modern computerised world.
Just a thought.
Atb

Dai,
You’ve just described EXACTLY what my Club (Ladybank) currently does. We can also add a few more guests if agreed with the Club Manager. As a wee added bonus, they also allow us a ‘members day’ where we can have a block of three tee times together also at members guest rates (currently 20 quid), giving us another eleven guests on one day - which should be fun!
All seems to work and I’m looking forward to hosting as much as possible after the current unpleasantness.
Cheers,
F.

[Niall C]

Agreed. That used to be the standard from with the clubs round about where I came from. My previous club also did the 12 guest day by agreement.


Niall

[Sean_A]

The very same members looking for more affordable visitor access at fellow top 100 clubs in most cases enjoy affordable membership fees at home by virtue of that Club’s greenfee income.


To erode that income for personal advancement is in my opinion not appropriate, in addition it is cooking the golden goose.



Via your membership, it’s highly likely you will already enjoy several reciprocal arrangements with similar stature Clubs. Ie the level of reciprocity is set out by the Club’s management. Any arrangements beyond that should be authorised.


It ends with the Club reducing access to members guests or increasing the price. Or not admitting members of modest means through fear they will do this or sublet access. A lose lose.

It is for the Club to decide if they are better off with the strangers guest fee or nothing. Not members deciding on its behalf blinkered by a personal motivation.

Again, members should be sensible about guests in general. It doesn't matter why guests are guests.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’m actually quite surprised by Marty, Niall and Thomas’s posts about well respected clubs limiting guests to 12 per member per year. That seems like insecurity on the part of the club.


Being able to take guests is a perk of membership. At my home club, there is no yearly limit (and the guest fee is very generous) yet the system does not get abused (whatever that means). Maybe this is because the club is set up strongly enough that members play mostly with other members; or maybe because there is a limit on “visitor” times that means there are always plenty of other times where members can take out “guests” without clogging up the course. Maybe because the club hasn’t subscribed too many members.


I play most of my golf with other members, take out non-member friends 2 or 3 times a year and usually end up taking out guests who I don’t know 4 or 5 times a year. The latter group often would have been playing the course anyway but I’m doing a favour. Plenty of GCA members have fallen in to this category and I find it very rewarding for both sides. This is the group where you can all argue “reduced green fee / abuse” if you must. I don’t agree.


With Duncan’s group, I get the idea that the folks probably wouldn’t have been playing the course anyway. Therefore surely it counts as additional green fee rather than reduced green fee? Unless these folks are clogging up the timesheet, what harm?


Subtle differences. But either you are a closed door and feel any access request is in poor taste... Or you are an open door and want to show off your course to as many people as possible. Almost all of us have time constraints. So almost all of us know when to say “no”. That goes for clubs as well as individuals.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Well said Ally.


Hosting guests at a reduced rate is indeed a perk of membership. One of the main reasons I joined Silloth was because I could take friends from home up there on a regular basis. Living two and a half hours away I am unlikely ever to become embroiled in daily club life or to develop a wide circle of mates there. Instead my membership was always intended to be an opportunity to host guests. The club actively encourages this approach to membership from its many long distance members and actually uses the notion of "impressing your friends" in its marketing material for potential new members.


Every fourball I host is £75 (plus clubhouse spend) which otherwise the club would not receive. The standard green fee is not compromised as the reduced guest rate is a hidden one, unknown to the casual visitor. Additionally, If I was not able to host guests as often as I liked I would probably not have joined in the first place, so the club would be a member down. There are a lot of long distance members at Silloth!


I can understand that if a club is heavily over-subscribed with members and that tee-times are at a premium, members regularly hosting multiple guests could become a problem. Even the busiest club though, is generally quiet in the afternoon. All they need to do is restrict guests to appropriate times of day.


I have hosted many members of GCA over the years and enjoyed being hosted by others. It has never been a transactional arrangement - we are all members of a community and we enjoy each others company while sharing our respective courses.


This new WhatsApp group is intended to be much the same and happily that is exactly how it is developing.

[Thomas Dai]

I don't disagree in general with what is said above (thank you Ally by the way! ). I've hosted and am happy to host all within the regulations applying at the Club concerned.
Long-term tradition, standard of the course and tee-time availability also have quite a part to play.
At some clubs I've observed from a distance quite a few instances of 'iffyness' between members and their non-member mates and business contacts which does contribute to ill feeling within the rest of the Club (eg "I see Tom/Dick/Harry is playing with his non-member next door member yet again today"). Matters can also be awkward for pro-shop etc staff when say a member attempting to take excess-advantage of a guest arrangement also happens to be a committee member!
Things have likely changed a bit over the last few decades though. Not only with travelling golfers, arranged group parties, societies etc etc but also because there are now, at least in the UK, a significant number of Open Comps at most, but not all, private members clubs. These permit players with official hcps to play other courses at lower than standard green-fee prices.
One area where there is yet to be consistency though is County Card and Golf Union arrangements, ie Eng, Scot, Wales, NI or RoI County Cards or equivalent are not valid in other parts of E/S/W/NI/RoI.
Lots of food for thought.
atb

[Sean_A]

One of my clubs allows the same guest only 4 times a year which is rarely an issue since I live 1.5 hours away. Like Duncan, I don't really get involved in club life or have club mates that I play with. It's mainly a place to play, bring mates and keep a handicap. Although, I note that with the handicap system a handicap can be kept by using GHIN. Some mates just signed up for GHIN system in New York! Since it's a world wide system it shouldn't matter where a handicap is kept.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Ally


For me, abuse of the guest system is where someone is effectively trading or selling playing privileges. At one end of the scale you have people like you and like me who who take on the odd guest that they mainly know or take on someone as a favour to a friend. At the other end of the scale you have people who mainly join the club to use it as a means of access to other clubs by way of schemes like this. In between those two extremes you have a grey area. Of course that all pre-supposes that the club gives a toss and I suspect there are quite a few clubs where it is common practice and no-one bats an eyelid. On the other hand I suspect there would be quite a few clubs where a fair section of the members would be annoyed that they had paid for a full membership and one of their fellow members was giving away cheap games willy nilly.


Now I appreciate not everyone on this WhatsApp group is out to game the system as Scott put it but it is a certainly a licence for those that are. Reverting back to the systems that David described would go a long way to putting a stop to any abuse.


Niall 

[Sean_A]

Ally


For me, abuse of the guest system is where someone is effectively trading or selling playing privileges. At one end of the scale you have people like you and like me who who take on the odd guest that they mainly know or take on someone as a favour to a friend. At the other end of the scale you have people who mainly join the club to use it as a means of access to other clubs by way of schemes like this. In between those two extremes you have a grey area. Of course that all pre-supposes that the club gives a toss and I suspect there are quite a few clubs where it is common practice and no-one bats an eyelid. On the other hand I suspect there would be quite a few clubs where a fair section of the members would be annoyed that they had paid for a full membership and one of their fellow members was giving away cheap games willy nilly.


Now I appreciate not everyone on this WhatsApp group is out to game the system as Scott put it but it is a certainly a licence for those that are. Reverting back to the systems that David described would go a long way to putting a stop to any abuse.


Niall

You are over thinking this. It's not a problem until its a problem. Should they choose to do so, clubs will deal with guest issues if and when they arise. Let's try to keep our feet on the ground 😎.

Ciao

[Michael Whitaker]

Exactly, Sean. Being a member of a group like this doesn’t guarantee you anything. One can’t visit a club as a guest unless the member invites you to join him/her for a game. Until that happens, it’s all just potential.


And, if that invite does come and you are not a good guest, additional invites will not be forthcoming or you won’t be a member of the group for much longer.


These groups tend to be very well self-regulated. We have even banned someone from participating in future Budas because of wayward behavior.


The general rule #1 is: “be good or be gone!”

[Niall C]

Mike


I think you're missing the point. You're looking at it from the Groups perspective and I'm looking at it from the point of view of the club and the members of the club. The issues would potentially remain even if all the guests turned out to be perfectly charming.


Niall

[Michael Whitaker]

Niall - I’m looking at this from the individual’s perspective... the host, as an individual, and the invitee, as an individual. The host has the choice to invite or not invite someone as a guest, subject to the rules and regulations of their club. The invitee has the choice to accept or decline the invitation under these same regulations. Not too much complicated about that. It’s a very straightforward situation. If the host abuses their guest privileges the club will let them know about it, I’m sure. If the guest abuses their opportunity to visit I’m confident the group will police that situation.

[Niall C]

Mike


I appreciate you are looking at it from the individual member of the Whatsapp groups perspective and not from the perspective of the club or indeed the other club members, and I think that is where you and I differ. I think you should be looking at this from the club's perspective and other members perspective as well. As I say there is a grey area between a club member taking on a few friends as guests every year and regularly taking on people they don't know.


Niall

[James Reader]

It seems to me that the issue of members’ guest rates has to be one for individual clubs and their members.


Some, like Silloth, will see this as a valuable source of income to supplement membership fees and will be happy for an individual member to bring as many guests each year as they wish.  Others may see it more as a perk of membership which has the potential to be used to excess.  In that case, then an annual limit on the number of guests each member can introduce at a reduced rate would be one way to avoid it being abused.


The reality is surely that there’s a continuum here between clubs that need every bit of additional income they can get (and whose members can’t afford or don’t want to pay any more) and those whose members are happy to pay higher fees so that there’s no reliance at all on visitor income (although there are surely many fewer of those in GB&I than in the US).  If a member understands where on that line their club lies, and behaves accordingly, then there shouldn’t be a problem with this kind of group.


As an aside, my home club, Huddersfield, has given all of its members vouchers for three free guest green fees this year, in recognition of the golf lost because of lockdowns over the past 12 months.  Not a GB&I Top 100 course I’m afraid, so I can’t join Duncan’s group, but if anyone on GCA would like a game just let me know.