[Tom_Doak]

The reason why artificial turf works well with other sports is because the goal doesn’t move.  In golf, the hole moves daily or at least a few times a week.  One of the disadvantages of an artificial green is that you can’t move the hole around.

The one course I have played with artificial greens was Valley of the Eagles GC in Haines, Alaska.  With the tiny volume of play they expected, and a site that goes underwater occasionally, they didn't see any way to maintain grass greens.  It really didn't play too badly . . . the bounce of the approach can be softened considerably depending on what's underneath.


They installed three permanent cups in each green so they could move the flag around from one round to the next.  The biggest problem with that was that the grizzly bears were curious about the holes and occasionally tear one up looking to see what was underneath.


Consider me a "bear" on the topic of artificial turf greens.

[Bruce Katona]

As I'm sure I've typed (and recently if memory serves) Tour Turf on teeing grounds was an option explored when we looked at managing a portfolio of very public high play courses where overall tee area was less overall green area, thus wear, tear and overplay resulted in soil compaction and putting the peg into mud on the tee, not grass.


While perhaps not acceptable at a medium to higher end private club, this option makes perfect sense on the high play, low-midrange cost public access facility where volume is high and maintenance budgets trimmed to economize.


 

[Ira Fishman]

Bruce,


Agree that this would be a potential exception to my never ever assertion. I am not sure that there would be significant cost savings, but it could provide a better alternative than beaten up tees.


For those who have referenced other sports, the primary reason that pro teams in the US use artificial surfaces is to be able to hold non-sports events such as concerts that generate additional revenue.


Ira

[Pat Burke]

Joe,
Lifespan for golf use any shorter than for other sports?  Baseball, tennis, soccer, football, rugby, field hockey, lacrosse, ...

I don’t think it’s any shorter, but it doesn’t last forever in any application. Like anything plastic, UV degradation happens even if the surface isn’t being heavily used.

the indoor facility I teach Uses trackman and we replace the hitting areas a couple times a year, could probably do it sooner tbh
Pretty concentrated area obviously, but it does not take long to get worn down, and they buy good ones

[Kalen Braley]

Bruce,

Agree that this would be a potential exception to my never ever assertion. I am not sure that there would be significant cost savings, but it could provide a better alternative than beaten up tees.

For those who have referenced other sports, the primary reason that pro teams in the US use artificial surfaces is to be able to hold non-sports events such as concerts that generate additional revenue.

Ira

Ira,

That could be, but the cost argument seems to be the most compelling.  Installing 1.5 acres of artificial turf for a football field vs 90 acres for a golf course is one helluva big difference.

[Jaeger Kovich]

The Cradle is often played from mats placed on top of the bermuda surfaces when they are in need of some stress relief. It doesn't seem to bother anyone. It might even make it a bit more fun to be honest as you can put a little extra spin the ball from a good mat... Although a Par-3 course is a far cry from Dornoch or whatever sacred ground I'd rather not play from synthetic on.


I'm sure there are plenty of supers out there who wished they had an artificial turf tee on a par-3 or two, especially during covid.

[Mark_Fine]

I don’t think any of us envision artificial turf showing up anytime soon on too many Top 100 golf courses but I do think lower level high volume courses might end up with some on certain tees. 


Where it might have more merit would be on desert courses.  Real grass looks fake and out of place there to begin with so you never know. 

[Grant Saunders]

Mark


Given the opportunity, would you design a virtual golf course with the knowledge it would never exist on the ground and only be played on a simulator?

[Mark_Fine]

Grant,
Never thought about that. I have redesigned/laid out new courses that have never gotten built    but most of us have had that happen at one time or the other.  I am not sure who designs courses for the simulators that are not replicas of existing ones?  Someone here may know?


I was thinking, I used to play a lot of golf in Japan but it was many years ago.  Talk about a country where the far majority of golf is played on artificial turf (hitting balls into nets at driving ranges).  I always felt so spoiled that I got to play on actual golf courses.  Correct me if my memory is wrong and someone knows but quite a few of the golf courses have double greens and the one is artificial turf.  Is that correct and still the case?

[Adam Lawrence]

Grant,
Never thought about that. I have redesigned/laid out new courses that have never gotten built    but most of us have had that happen at one time or the other.  I am not sure who designs courses for the simulators that are not replicas of existing ones?  Someone here may know?


I was thinking, I used to play a lot of golf in Japan but it was many years ago.  Talk about a country where the far majority of golf is played on artificial turf (hitting balls into nets at driving ranges).  I always felt so spoiled that I got to play on actual golf courses.  Correct me if my memory is wrong and someone knows but quite a few of the golf courses have double greens and the one is artificial turf.  Is that correct and still the case?

No, the traditional Japanese two green system has one that is warm and one that is cold season grass.

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks Adam.  I couldn’t remember but just found it fascinating they had two greens.  I knew it was because of the seasons but didn’t know and never checked on the kind of grass.

[SL_Solow]

I can remember a time not too long ago when this site in its condemnation of Rich Harvest Farms was aghast that one tee had artificial turf, largely due to Mr. Rich's unwillingness to cut down some trees which shaded the area.  Now we are talking about extended use.  One of the great benefits of our game is the ability to interact with relatively natural surroundings.  Much of the green space in major metropolitan areas consists of golf courses.  Finally, while I agree that we tend to over manicure our playing fields, the use of fertilizers has improved significantly and the environmental bashing is overdone.  If you want to see the direction where we should be headed, see the latest issue of the Chicago District Golfer magazine and read the article aboit Dan Dinelli, superintendent at North Shore CC.  It is an eye opener.

[Tom_Doak]

I can remember a time not too long ago when this site in its condemnation of Rich Harvest Farms was aghast that one tee had artificial turf, largely due to Mr. Rich's unwillingness to cut down some trees which shaded the area. 

Shel:


I have never been to Rich Harvest Farms, but I thought that the negative comments on that hole had to do with not only having an artificial tee, but having it to enable a hole that played through a very narrow clearing between trees.


I'm with you on the use of artificial turf, as a general thing, but by the same token I'm a practical person.  Funny how no one has commented on how places like North Berwick use artificial turf to minimize wear in high traffic areas and walk paths.  It's certainly a nice alternative to asphalt.

[Mark_Fine]

I have played Rich Harvest Farms and remember that artificial tee and recall my reaction.  As Tom said, if my memory serves me right is that the hole that has the massive tree right in front of the green as well?  I do recall it was a very tight driving hole. 


Speaking of courses with walking paths with artificial turf, I think we will be seeing some soon at a slightly famous course in GA 

[Philip Hensley]

For normal courses -
Greens .... no.
Fairways ... no.
Tees .... yes!
18 times a round the ball is placed upon a tee-peg. The tee-peg might just as well be placed into a mat and the players feet located on the mat.
atb

+1


Why not have artificial turf on Par 4 & 5s when the club is (hopefully) not going to interact with the turf?

[SL_Solow]

The hole at Rich Harvest is named "Snead's Crotch" and features a very narrow chute to a sharp dog leg at an extremely awkward distance (pretty short).  It also has an artificial turf tee.  No tree in front of the green.  I concur that turf is likely better than asphalt although cart riders may not find it as easily.

[John Emerson]

I can remember a time not too long ago when this site in its condemnation of Rich Harvest Farms was aghast that one tee had artificial turf, largely due to Mr. Rich's unwillingness to cut down some trees which shaded the area.  Now we are talking about extended use.  One of the great benefits of our game is the ability to interact with relatively natural surroundings.  Much of the green space in major metropolitan areas consists of golf courses.  Finally, while I agree that we tend to over manicure our playing fields, the use of fertilizers has improved significantly and the environmental bashing is overdone.  If you want to see the direction where we should be headed, see the latest issue of the Chicago District Golfer magazine and read the article aboit Dan Dinelli, superintendent at North Shore CC.  It is an eye opener.

What Dan is doing is great and all and I salute his effort, but at the end of the day nutrients are nutrients, nitrogen is nitrogen, and phosphorus is phosphorus.  It does not matter if they are organic materials or granular fertilizers.  They can pollute or impact water the exact same.  One could very easily argue that using granular fertilizer is much more efficient and has a significantly less impact to the environment.  Just because someone is using organic principles doesn’t mean they’re any less pollutive.  It’s like ppl hear the word organic and automatically assume less environmental impacts.  This assumption couldn’t be farther from reality.


It would be interesting to see the how his total nutrient inputs have changed.  This is the only way to determine if NSCC has
decreased it’s footprint with this method.

[James Brown]

1.  Because a golf course in astroturf would be a huge downgrade in aesthetics. 


2.  Wouldn’t it costs a ton to build a course this way to either build a new course or renovate to this?


3.  Because no architect with a good reputation would likely be a party to such a course.

[SL_Solow]

John,


Just so I understand, your premise is that the addition of nutrients necessarily reaches the groundwater and thus increases pollution.  Accordingly, fertilizers of all amounts are undesirable.  May I presume a similar stance regarding pesticides and herbicides and may I further presume the view extends to agriculture.  Finally, I agree regarding the misleading nature of the term organic.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I think that golf would then become even more of a two class society. The haves (with grass) and the havenots (without).

[Mark_Fine]

SL,
Which hole has the big tree blocking most of the green?  I can't recall, been a very long time since I played it. 
Mark

[Mark Fedeli]

The Loma Club par 3 course in San Diego gets a ton of play and uses artificial turf tees, which I think is a wise decision. I wouldn’t want it on a full course, or anywhere else on the course, but when you’re just having fun and a few beers and a grass tee would get destroyed anyway from the amount of traffic, I think the turf tees improve the overall experience. They’re also more forgiving, which is great for a place filled with little kids and beginners.

[John Emerson]

John,


Just so I understand, your premise is that the addition of nutrients necessarily reaches the groundwater and thus increases pollution.  Accordingly, fertilizers of all amounts are undesirable.  May I presume a similar stance regarding pesticides and herbicides and may I further presume the view extends to agriculture.  Finally, I agree regarding the misleading nature of the term organic.

Yes exactly.  The idea is to decrease total
nutrient inputs.  There is zero difference in 1lb of nitrogen from a bag granular fertilizer and 1lb of organic fertilizer or compost.  The idea is to reduce total nutrient loads.  Form of the nutrient is irrelevant.


Pesticides are a bit different can of worms.  A lot to type here, but as we have progressed through time pesticides have become much much safer.  Nutrient loads are by far a bigger threat to the environment and human health than pesticides. 

[Joe Hancock]

A couple thoughts:


Golf course superintendents are experts at applying only the amount of fertilizer they intend to. Homeowners are not experts, and are more likely to over-apply.


Natural turf would be much cooler in direct sunlight than artificial turf would be. Draw your own conclusions on comfort/ safety/  environmental impact.

[John Emerson]

A couple thoughts:


Golf course superintendents are experts at applying only the amount of fertilizer they intend to. Homeowners are not experts, and are more likely to over-apply.


Natural turf would be much cooler in direct sunlight than artificial turf would be. Draw your own conclusions on comfort/ safety/  environmental impact.

Bingo!  Besides the Ag industry and point solution entities such as sewage treatment facilities, homeowners are really good at over applying EVERYTHING.  Nutrients, water, pesticides etc.  They should be relegated to artificial turf above everyone!

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