GolfClubAtlas.com > Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group
Del Paso CC-Fowler? Soon to be redone?
Forrest Richardson:
Pat — Did the "heart and soul" of TOC go away the day Robertson worked on behalf of members and his own sense of style — including Old Tom's — and built the Road Hole?
A simple "yes" or "no" will do. And, by the way, I owe you no dinner or drink that I recall.
RJ_Daley:
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?dtype=a&mapdata=xU4YXdELrnC1W3a3EokQzTKFkP7R0zQVu60AdOCmdnYp404j5lROckzdVLeazrVV1%2bAFXUwfBIi%2biu6tNk6Tbw3XkL2%2bEGLkTObqEJdPzKNWBMvnNxnVut1uPkmpBDJsr%2fVM8QjV%2b%2f0BwBN4W96Sd%2bNZKY86dwDAceDK8wVUWq4OxLqIhNkM%2f1tGqNeb36o2GNF5Yg%2bcqXnLPF1aGGA6cNNmpRzse7Zv1WeWoRiX6bGgFqR8FXPwfeazm3zxzF%2bA0mwZsGdHJH9j2JK893IeglpPXUF9sfIsWY6OjsQxQ7FgGJKPca0ZvBsl7ogPVGr7aUoNtl1E64oN%2fjhoXo98uiqgh52BheTWZ%2bCHUT0%2bUPJzq94RLX2Bjq9g976PPbsym%2f4SOL%2bd3So5mR8NyvtJk5HIZK58E%2f6zXbb1BZgOxGror4ytPZ%2baHmTRnaPrhKsVW1SPXAxXb%2b61%2feynrGZ6CszdnpF5%2fkcQaOaJKtVAoorw19kVrKtj8A%3d%3d
I posted the url link to hopefully give an aerial of the Del Paso CC. Looking at the history of the redesigns there, I have to question what is left of the original Fowler work. I can't even figure out the routing. But it surely seems like it is landlocked and tree infested.
par yards slope c.r.
Middle 72 6300 122 70.60
Forward 74 5866 129 73.80
Other Blue 72 6591 131 72.00
I read Tommy's remark about the routing not ever having the sun in one's eyes. That is a start as to describing what we are even talking about in terms of qualities and character. I read a few call the question; "what is the spirit and design ideals of Herb Fowler to be preserved". It seems that his original designs in CA didn't last too long becasue they are (NLE) like Lake Merced and Ambassador Hotel, and his remodels were remodeled. It is not mentioned if he worked in collaboration with others here in the US like he did in England with Abercrombe and Simpson. How much of the enduring work in England was the other two gents, as contrasted to solo work just by Fowler? I don't know the answers. It sounds like Russell Talley may. But, I do wonder what we are really talking about if we are concentrating on the merits of the decision to remodel. I fully understand and agree that there is no restoration or sensitive restoration that will likely take place if the above work descriptions by 'cliffhenry' are correct. I do think it is disingenuous to say they will retain the "spirit of Fowler" yet describe the extensive work to be done. That sure sounds like a marketing spin to me. But, who else commenting here knows the golf course, its merits, unique qualities (other than avoiding sun in eyes in routing) which are Fowler's? Are the greens spectacular and set well for interesting approach shots after thoughtful tee shots? Does the course have interesting strategy due to use of topo and hazard placement that exhibits some real craftsmanship of high merit. Do the hole designs offer the golfer interesting options that spring from some basic expressed ideals of Fowler? What would the course offer if just trees are thinned or removed to reveal hidden periphery features (if any). There was some comment about the soils and drainage. Is the course in distress due to poor, petered out or compacted soils, or lack of infrastructure to the point that it can't merely have the crust scraped off like one of those famous California skin dermabrasions/dermaplannings? If resurfacing takes place, does that set into motion all sorts of new drainage issues brought about by modern codes and restrictions in this apparently land locked residential area.
I think we are hung up on the diverse and strongly held basic instincts many of us hold about so-called restorations that turned out to not be truly such. Contributors to this thread seem to be defending their basic instincts and values more so than the on-the-ground issues, that most of us really don't know in Del Paso's case.
Patrick_Mucci:
Forrest RIchardson,
I don't know how you can draw an analogy between the destruction of 14 out of 18 holes, and modifying/creating one hole.
Remember too that TOC was 22 holes and a number of other configurations and that it evolved over time. It wasn't designed from the get go, as an 18 hole golf course, as Del Paso was.
Despite not answering your question, I'll still buy you dinner.
RJDaley,
There are soil and agronomic issues, but I don't know that I would make the quantum leap that a thorough redesign will fix them, but a restoration wouldn't.
Forrest Richardson:
Your recollection of TOC is, at best, missing several hundred years worth of change. It was not originally 22 holes, nor was the Road Hole among its most dramatic changes. I like filet.
Forrest Richardson:
Pat — I failed to see that word again — "restoration".
Explain this as it relates to a playing board that changes with the wind, owners, erosion, settling, people influences, economy, growing conditions, amount of play/wear and tear, extreme weather, management style, trends and thousands of other extremely worthwhile affects. (I just partially described "golf" in case you were not aware.)
Restore what? To when? To what level?
It's all a large grey area. "Restoration" is posisble only in very specific instances and this, I believe, is not one. The course may be "sensitively remodeled" as was pointed out. It may be fixed and in process pay hommage to a particilar architect's style. It may also be interpreted in the form of a particular era or architect. A few features — maybe even 50 — can certainly be "restored", at least partially and approximately.
But restored?
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