GolfClubAtlas.com > Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group
Del Paso CC-Fowler? Soon to be redone?
Tommy_Naccarato:
Pat, Right now its in a room I can't get to because my cousin is asleep in my office/library/central research center :)
But I'll try to touch on it because it was a reference about Fowler, and how he had little patience for his unknowing clientele who had no idea of architecture but were always quick to opine. His response was that he usually flew off at the handle at them; or to that extent. Such is Sean's implications of me--as if I didn't already know I'm certifiably wacko.
But he fails to see the extent of Cliff's original posts where he (Cliff) is simply trying to dis-credit Mindy and switch attention from us certifield wackos. He wants to "Spin-it" if you will! (who he doesn't understand just how well read and versed some are about the subject on GCA or their abilities at finding research.)
At that time, I had already had, as did others, a few email conversations with Mindy. This turned into a phone conversation, and from these conversations I find her to be a highly-intelligent woman that is ready to search out the best resource for her club's cause; as well as its her job as a member of the Del Paso greens committee. Her chore is a typical one--a faction of green committee who wants their course to look and play like Serrano at Durado or Granite Bay-yet, the membership is based of mid to high-handicappers who love to play as much as the low handicappers do. They do it for their leisure, enjoyment and competitive bent. They love their course, and several other factions of the green committee do not fully understand the neccessity of a very costly redesign of a course that has suited them nicely for 83+/- years. Yes, it may need work, but to fully reroute the course as well as build a beheamoth that won't be anything like Fowler's work, only a representation of what Kyle Phillips feels is along the "Classical Lines" of Fowler's work. To me, that is more then enough reason to research all of this.
Simply put, I think someone is trying to bully her into submission, and from what I can tell you from the conversation I had with her, it isn't going to work.
So, Sean, if I had an extra copy of GAOGA I would send it to you, but I don't, but I still think you should have one or at least Tosh, so he can see how wrong he got those bunkers at Merion! ;D But as I have said before, that I know there times that I'm very harsh and thats because I just can't stand to see another Merion or Riviera or Oak Hill or Bel Air or any of Max Behr's courses, and so on and so on. The list is ad infinitum.
So instead of harping more on this--lets try to find some information for this really passionate lady who wants to learn Fowler and his body of work as well as restore order to a wonderful private member's club that could be the same as anyone in a million in regards to their maintenance and upkeep and original design intent. Sean, you live much closer to Far Hills then I do. Why don't you put down the books for a second and get over there and do four hours research of Fowler with Paul Turner or anybody else that wants to learn, and has no problem with the 3000 mile barrier between Sacramento and New York.
I will guarantee you it will be totally exhilirating when you find something that might be of great help, and in truth it really feels great when you do!
Patrick_Mucci:
Tommy Naccarato,
Wouldn't anything done in the TRUE SPIRIT of Fowler mandate the preservation of his routing of the golf course.
Isn't the routing the soul of the golf coures ? His true spirit ?
Isn't that what endures long after features erode and evolve?
If you're going to dramatically change the routing, then you are destroying Fowler's TRUE SPIRIT.
There are no if, or buts about it, you're disfiguring and forever destroying his work.
How can a club that knows nothing of Fowler's work, declare that a total revision will preserve the "true spirit" of Fowler's work ?
Have plans been submitted which reflect the recreation of Fowler's true spirit ?
Forrest Richardson,
I believe that Oakmont never considered re-routing their golf course, let alone changing a hole or two. Oakmont's work has been along the lines of a faithfully restoring what mother nature, and perhaps a green chairman might have planted or narrowed.
George Pazin:
--- Quote from: Forrest Richardson on November 15, 2003, 02:43:05 AM ---George says: "I do hope things go well at Del Paso, but I have to admit, pretty much anyone saying they intend to duplicate "the spirit" of someone else's work scares the heck out of me."
Yet, George also says the Fownes, creators of one of America's most teasured courses, apparently desired to duplicate the spirit of links courses being built across the sea. Thankfully George was not around in 1902-3...but certainly it is great having him around now.
--- End quote ---
Surely a learned man such as yourself can see the difference between attempting to emulate the spirit of someone else's style and emulating a style of golf. Or perhaps not.
As for the second part:
--- Quote ---I will also not dig deep into his hundreds of posts in which he applauds certain designers, designs and ideals...for doing so would only serve to point out that he truly does embrace the concept of the duplication of "the spirit" of someone else's work."
--- End quote ---
I do indeed laud designers who attempt to learn their craft through deep thinking, critical reflection, etc. I'd be surprised if any of my posts indicated that I felt an architect was accurately attempting to duplicate the spirit of someone else's work. Even my many posts on Oakmont, which to my recollection are the only posts I've made regarding specific restoration work, are comments on the course itself, not on the work carried out by the various parties involved.
I also see a difference in an original designer of a course attempting to emulate the spirit of another designer, and designer over another designer in his spirit. If Brian Silva chooses to emulate Raynor's spirit in creating Black Creek, I think that's very interesting. If he chooses to redesign one of Raynor's original courses in the spirit of Raynor, I'd say that's not a good thing. Look at the result's of Fazio trying to emulate the spirit of George Thomas. I don't think there was any malicious intent, but that didn't stop a bad thing from happening.
Lastly, when I say a statement scares the heck out of me, that most definitely does not mean it is automatically wrong - it means all the red flags are up & I think it's time to do some serious thinking and rethinking of the issue at hand. It is indeed possible that someone could build a better course than the work of the original architect. It just seems to happen so infrequently that I think prudence would win out. For all his written devil may care, let's let things evolve attitude, I'd be surprised if Rich Goodale would encourage someone to come in and remodel Dornoch in the spirit of the previous work done. Similarly, I'd be equally surprised if you were to say to one of your clients 20 years from now, sure, let someone else redo this course I created in the spirit of what I intended.
The most insightful comment on this entire thread was Tom MacWood's simple observation: Why would anyone want to play a course created in the spirit of a master when they can play the real thing?
SPDB:
Tommy - your thread is informative, and is a pretty good example of what I was looking for. By describing the background you have qualified your remarks (but not necessarily justified them).
Your comments about Fowler are interesting. Nevertheless, whatever Fowler did in the context of an employee/employer relationship doesn't give you the same authority.
I sincerely hope that Cliff and Mindy do what's right by the membership, and resolve their differences to the satisfaction and approval of the WHOLE club. Hopefully that means a thoughtful and sympathetic restoration of Fowler's course. If, however, a majority of the club members want something different, who are we to argue with them, regrettable as it may be?
I can only imagine how this thread would turn out if we substituted "Los Angeles CC (North)-Fowler? Soon to be redone?" in the title, and swapped George C. Thomas, Jr. for Kyle Phillips.
It does illustrate that these are hard questions.
ForkaB:
George
If you look back at my last post on this thread (and my body of "work" on this site), you will see that you are wrong--I am in fact very much open to the possibilites of improving Dronoch. It has been done before, many times--why not again?
I know Tommy has puffed you up a lot on this thread, but the only home runs being hit here are from Sean. He hasn't put a foot wrong yet and all the Kings horses and all the Naccaratos and MacWoods and Pazins and even Muccis have done nothing to even make him wobble sitting up there on his wall. Keep it up, SPBD (and Forrest)! .......and the rest of you--raise your game if you want to play or take your balls home and sulk. This whole thread, started so positively by Mindy and Cliff has become a non-content, petulant no-brainer.
IMHO, of course.
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