Bethpage Black - How to Regard the Burbeck Contribution?

[Tom_Doak]

So, the question isn't if they are softer than most other Tillie greens, it might be whether or not the general patterns of the rolls that are there seem to follow Tillie greens elsewhere?  If so, I say they are Tillies, with some interpretation by Burbeck and crew, which frankly happens all the time.

Last question, none of us has seen the originals, so how do we know what existed even before the Rees redo for the Open have any bearing?  Did they ever get re-grassed, which would require a drag matt to prepare the soil, and which often soften contours (and don't ask how I know this, but they rarely bring in the original gca and don't even see why they should).  Or maybe that superintendent, whatever year but several past opening, made the decision to soften?

Again, do they look in any way like Tillie greens, despite all the changes? 

Jeff:


I played the course once way before the changes -- in 1979, with my mom of all people!  I'm sure that others here remember it "before Rees" better than I do.  But, I would have to say that the putting surfaces did not remind me of Tillinghast any more than any other architect of that period.  [And, Rees notably changed a few.]


But, it's dangerous to speculate.  I wrote in the MacKenzie biography that surely the 11th at Yarra Yarra was a MacKenzie original green, but I'm told by the historians that he was never there, and that Alex Russell signed up that job not long after MacKenzie got on the boat.  And I would have considered myself way more expert in MacKenzie than in Tillinghast [even though I do consult at SFGC and Somerset Hills].

[Tom_Doak]

So last thing TD... if the client said, "Tom, I trust you"... would feel you right in executing a significant re-contouring of the Bethpage Black greens?  What would you go on... other Tillie holes of similarly distance?  Enhance the little that's there? (Like 3, 5, 6, 18)... I don't think you have to dump on Rees to answer, because while my memories are dim from before the 1998 reno-storation, I don't believe he touched the greens much at all, except to alter some margins...

VK:  Gil Hanse is the reno-storation guy, not me. 


If we could turn back the clock to the 1980's when they hadn't hosted a championship, and someone had trusted me to do what I thought was best, I might well have added some modest contour to some of the greens.  But I don't think that Rees changed them much [other than the 14th and maybe the 8th?] and now that the Black course is a sacred championship site, I would probably not add my own changes even if asked.  [I qualified that with "probably" in case Brooks Koepka wants to get the job for us.  ]  I certainly wouldn't do it and pretend that Tillie was prevented from doing it, or whatever story someone might spin. 

[V. Kmetz]

So last thing TD... if the client said, "Tom, I trust you"... would feel you right in executing a significant re-contouring of the Bethpage Black greens?  What would you go on... other Tillie holes of similarly distance?  Enhance the little that's there? (Like 3, 5, 6, 18)... I don't think you have to dump on Rees to answer, because while my memories are dim from before the 1998 reno-storation, I don't believe he touched the greens much at all, except to alter some margins...

VK:  Gil Hanse is the reno-storation guy, not me. 


If we could turn back the clock to the 1980's when they hadn't hosted a championship, and someone had trusted me to do what I thought was best, I might well have added some modest contour to some of the greens.  But I don't think that Rees changed them much [other than the 14th and maybe the 8th?] and now that the Black course is a sacred championship site, I would probably not add my own changes even if asked.  [I qualified that with "probably" in case Brooks Koepka wants to get the job for us.  ]  I certainly wouldn't do it and pretend that Tillie was prevented from doing it, or whatever story someone might spin.

Yes 14 definite Rees changes, but I can barely remember what it was like previously, except for knowing that front tongue was never there.


Thanks for the input all. I know it's too juicy a facility to resist, but maybe someday the championships will drift away and the depth of rough and mow lines can grow more appropriate.  It's really a fine route and the holes are fun to tackle (used to be).

[MCirba]

Disclaimer: I've only played the Black pre-Rees and based on photos I've seen no reason to return.


Then again, I'm a muni rat and I loved the ragged conditions I encountered on a November day back around 1990 or so.  The routing and use of land forms was just so, so good

[Sven Nilsen]

One of the articles in the thread that Mike linked to noted the importance of moving groups through the course. 


Although it doesn't specifically note the greens in this regard, it would make sense that they wanted players not to get hung up putting with other groups waiting on them.


Sven

[MCirba]

The real planning of Bethpage started in the autumn of 1933 when the Long Island Park Commission was able to execute an option on the Yoakum Estate of 1300 acres.   Here from the Kansas City Star on December 31, 1933 we find another link to Tillinghast and Bethpage while discussing proposed work at Swope Park.

I think it's important to our understanding that this was the mid-1930s after an economic disaster and Tillinghast (and likely other architects) were trying to find any work that was available.   I have little doubt his firm designed the courses but I also doubt that Tillinghast would have spent much time on the ground supervising hundreds of WPA laborers during construction, as by 1935 he was crisscrossing the country doing paid consulting for the PGA of America.   It's clear he knew Burbeck, and likely trusted Burbeck to implement his design without much oversight.    That is likely the reason BB doesn't have the same type of intricate detailing within the greens that courses where Tillinghast controlled the details of construction have.   Oddly, Burbeck also seemed to take credit for the design of the Jones Beach Par three course but I've found numerous news articles that say that course was designed by Dr. Mackenzie.

[Mike Sweeney]

Oddly, Burbeck also seemed to take credit for the design of the Jones Beach Par three course but I've found numerous news articles that say that course was designed by Dr. Mackenzie.

Mike Cirba,


I am genuinely intrigued. Are you saying the Par 3 course at Jones Beach was originally designed by Dr. Alister MacKenzie of Augusta/Lahinch/Cypress Point fame? Can you post a reference? Thanks


PS - Mike just re-read this and I am not trying to challenge. I am also on a MacKenzie kick...

[Sven Nilsen]

Oddly, Burbeck also seemed to take credit for the design of the Jones Beach Par three course but I've found numerous news articles that say that course was designed by Dr. Mackenzie.

Mike Cirba,


I am genuinely intrigued. Are you saying the Par 3 course at Jones Beach was originally designed by Dr. Alister MacKenzie of Augusta/Lahinch/Cypress Point fame? Can you post a reference? Thanks


PS - Mike just re-read this and I am not trying to challenge. I am also on a MacKenzie kick...

Aug. 27, 1933 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -

[Mike Sweeney]

Sven,


Amazing. I will have to play it now. Thanks for posting...

[Phil Carlucci]

Sven,


Amazing. I will have to play it now. Thanks for posting...

If I remember correctly, that little blurb in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle inspired an interesting Jones Beach thread a while back, over whether or not a Mackenzie course at Jones Beach was ever actually built.
(Found it:  https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44370.0.html)

In either case, you're out of luck as far as playing golf there now.  The Jones Beach pitch-putt was put out of its misery by Hurricane Sandy and is now a zipline and climbing park.

[Mike Sweeney]

In either case, you're out of luck as far as playing golf there now.  The Jones Beach pitch-putt was put out of its misery by Hurricane Sandy and is now a zipline and climbing park.

Thanks Phil for that and I enjoy your site. I played yesterday at Indian Island, first off, we played in 3:20. Golf is back on Long Island...

[MCirba]

Mackenzie's obit also mentions his course at Jones Beach, may it rest in peace per Phil's mention of its Hurricane Sandy destruction.

[MCirba]

Brooklyn Daily Eagle January 11, 1934.

[Kyle Harris]

My source from this is hearsay, and subsequent actions can call the voracity of the data into question; however, there exists some photographic evidence to support the claim.

Apparently Rees Jones was working under the impression that the bunkers migrated away from the edges of the greens and not that the greens had shrunken away from the bunkers. So he brought the bunkers closer to the edge and eliminated what was designed to part of the putting surface.

It reminds me of the adage often used with social media...

"When a service is free YOU are the product."


Personally, I'm not sure Tillinghast was really trying at that point in his life. He is the classic case 8 hitter on a World Series lineup that would bat cleanup for the last-place team.

[Tom_Doak]

It reminds me of the adage often used with social media...

"When a service is free YOU are the product."

Ouch!  But it did kinda burnish his Open Doctor reaume, didn't it?


I won't touch your last graph.

[Tim Martin]

Sorry wrong thread.

[Kyle Harris]

It reminds me of the adage often used with social media...

"When a service is free YOU are the product."

Ouch!  But it did kinda burnish his Open Doctor reaume, didn't it?


I won't touch your last graph.

I will offer that Tillinghast would never be part of a platoon, at least. And that this particular lineup includes Ross, Maxwell, Mackenzie, and Flynn...

The irony here is that my gripe with Tillinghast is somewhat with his mythos as several of his courses are among my favorites. Much like the mythos surrounding many ballyhooed mid-90's Phillies acquisitions that filled that description all too well. 

[MCirba]

I hate when bunkers migrate on their own. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

My source from this is hearsay, and subsequent actions can call the voracity of the data into question; however, there exists some photographic evidence to support the claim.

Apparently Rees Jones was working under the impression that the bunkers migrated away from the edges of the greens and not that the greens had shrunken away from the bunkers. So he brought the bunkers closer to the edge and eliminated what was designed to part of the putting surface.

It reminds me of the adage often used with social media...

"When a service is free YOU are the product."


Personally, I'm not sure Tillinghast was really trying at that point in his life. He is the classic case 8 hitter on a World Series lineup that would bat cleanup for the last-place team.

I was under the impression that it was a well considered choice, perhaps driven by the USGA and the conclusion that larger putting surfaces would make the course too easy for a US open.  Then, the choice was to move the bunkers in at the same approximate scale they originally were, or leave their bottom half footprints in the name of not tearing up a Tillie.  As always, tough choices when you are serving two competing goals - a current tournament course and a at least sympathetic restoration.