I also believe Burbeck was a strong personality and was in charge of issues beyond just golf, which may have led him to have to make certain decisions...
And, if Tillie was out on his consulting tour, certainly many field decisions were made without him, as is customary in any design job, modern or otherwise....
Whatever happened, I remain convinced that the primary reason the golf courses look like they do (did) was because of Tilly, and that's my definition of who should get primary credit for the design.
I'm learning a lot from this exchange and I wasn't interested in resurrecting battles for "Credit"... I do not care if the man in the moon gets it, unless he's being demonstrably robbed, which the context and lack of documentation doesn't seem to suggest here.
But JB's post sums up/ or lights to one of my real questions about Bethpage....
First a premise: Aren't these the tamest, least-Tillie-like GREENS you've ever played?You don't have to join me, and I'm willing to hear counter-examples, but my view is YES. I have grown up on Tillinghast courses, famous and less famous, courses that he OD, recast, rebuilt and influenced...mostly in the Met district, but examples in Philly and Calif, along with study from afar -- enough to say that these Bethpage Black (and Red, for that matter) greens are unlike the general character of those others.
At the Black, while the pitch and slope may elicit some of vexing, caution you usually need on a Tillie green, in the comparative main, they are nearly flat and feature-less... In my opinion, you don't see a near Tillie contour until #6 and the only other holes on the course that offer a Tillinghast complication (in the sense I've understood it) are #s 8, 11, 14, 15, and 17...and #8, 14 and #17 are a the ubiquitous split decked problem that many designers used/have used while Tillinghast used sparingly (again, in my experience)... leaving #11 and 15 as, imo, the only distinct Tillie green stamp.
And many of the other greens are almost devoid of anything approaching the bold contours, pinched, twisted saddles, tapering swells I associate with a Tillie... #s 1 - 5, 10, 16 and 18 are nearly a flat plane, simply pitched one continuous direction or the other... #7, 12 and 13 are closer to a Ross "upside down saucer",
but absent the bold, contour challenges present when Tillie used that style on WFW 9 and WFE 2, 8 (ironically three
long holes, like the ones at BB). Very gentle putting holes that also receive shots more gently with their back to front pitch.
#9 has the least interesting green of any Tillie hole I know...
So maybe you agree with the premise, or will offer a contention, but if you do agree, I ask....
1. IS
THAT THE INFLUENCE OF BURBECK?
If there isn't enough
positive evidence to suggest his responsibility, is this "negative" evidence enough to suggest his true role in what we have? Is it contextually reasonable to take this observation of decidedly un-Tillie like set of 18 greens (if you agree with the heart of the premise) and say that the iteration of a softer style from that which Tillie might have been expected to produce, is easy to understand...? Tillie wasn't there that much, was engaged in other national GCA practice, and if Burbeck softened the greens, it's contextually easy to understand as Tillie would have little control over what the opening day version was/were.
2. EVENSO, IS THIS COURSE BETTER SERVED BY
THAT INFLUENCE?
No matter whether its Tillie's or Burbeck's credit/purpose (the singular aspect of green iteration left in 1936) was this a judicious/practical softening of Tillie's style? (again, whether Tillie himself did it or not)... are these set of 18 greens "right" for this Tillinghast
public course.. or is the design held back some because either Tillie (or Burbeck) adopted this softer style for the rigors of this course as confronted by a large public?
3. IF THIS COURSE HAD MORE TILLIE-LIKE GREENS,
WOULD THE NEEDS FOR EXTENDED LENGTHS AND SOUL-CRUSHING ROUGH FOR a 20 YARD MISS,
BE PRESENT (in the minds of the Rees, the USGA, and the Bethpage authorities)? If holes 1, 2, 5, 9, 10, 12, 13, 16 and 18 had those wicked, vexing Tillie greens that I know, would the demands for "something" to challenge the championship players be muted? If number 3 had a green like #9 at Quaker, would it need to erect a tee at 230, as they did years back?
- In all of this, I'm not saying the Bethpage Black greens are shit; I like them plenty and often appreciate the softer contours playing such a long, rough-tough course; I'm just saying they don't look or play very much like the other noted designs of this great architect.
- And please correct/challenge me if you think I'm wrong in the premise of these greens as softest in the Tillie canon.