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Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2021, 07:34:20 AM »
Tom,


I did not expect you to let it go and hoped that you would not. I missed the PPS about the bunker on 18 so that is indeed an exception to my general statement. I also understand you not wanting to appear argumentative although I for one do not view disagreeing with me or anyone else as a problem so long as you explain your position—that actually might help us learn. But agreeing with a criticism certainly is the opposite of appearing argumentative.


Thanks,


Ira

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2021, 10:26:46 AM »
Thanks Ira.


Since we may have put an end to this exercise, I will go back and address a few of the questions / opinions that came up.


1st hole:  It's partly that way because it was a cramped place to start.  Some don't like a short par-4 opener, I do like them.


2nd hole:  Hardly mentioned at all, and as Kyle Harris says, an underrated hole because it comes so early.


3rd hole:  With water left and an unlimited amount of room to the right, we preferred to give a lot of fairway with a small bunker right center, instead of less overall room and a bunker at the right edge.  If anything it sounds like I placed the bunker too well for some folks  :D


4th hole:  The abrupt rise in front of the green was one of the most compelling features of the property.  Bill Coore had a hole routed here [green was in a slightly different position, but it was up top], where I had originally put two parallel holes running east and west underneath the slope instead . . . we could have crammed in more holes on the main property that way, but Bill and I agreed that it would be a shame not to use that feature as prominently as possible.  In fact, that had a lot to do with how the routings wound up intertwined, as we felt both courses should get a taste of that slope [15 Red is the continuation of it], instead of one course getting all of it.  If I were to build it today, though, I might make the green even simpler, instead of having that back tier in it.  One thing that didn't get mentioned much here is that often the best way to address somebody's concern about a feature of a golf hole is not to alter THAT feature, but to alter some other feature to soften the effect of the first one.


5th hole:  A couple of people mentioned the size of this green and I will happily cop to getting carried away here.  Certainly it can play very differently from one day to the next, it's not just a small green with bunkers tight around it.  Bill Coore said something near the end of construction that "it could be your 14th at Bandon Trails" in terms of controversy, which really surprised me, but it hasn't been that, thankfully.  In fact it hasn't attracted as much attention as I expected, instead #7 was Matt Ginella's pet peeve.


6th hole:  Now this is a truly big green, the very first one we let Mike McCartin design and shape on his own.  Someone said they just always play left here and if the flag is on the right half of the green that's a good idea, but the temptation to have a whack at the green is very strong -- even I have done it!  We could have made the green just the right half, too, but then fewer people would get to say they drove it -- and a lot fewer people would complain about having three-putted it [or four-putted].


7th hole:  I explained its origin story on a concurrent thread, will have to paste a link here.


8th hole:  Very little comment.  One of my rare split fairway holes.  This hole was also on one of Bill Coore's original plans, though I don't remember if the green site was the same.


9th through 11th:  These three holes were on ground Bill had not used in any of his plans, included by me [along with 10-13 on the Red course] in order to stretch the plan to 36 holes. [Each routing had to use one of those lesser stretches, by design.]  The slopes were big and broad with no abrupt features as with the rest of the site; the trees also encroached all the way across #10 to the left side of #9.  Usually when I am confronted by a portion of the site with fewer features, I use it to add length to the course, so 9 and 11 are pretty hard.  [Bill did the same on 10-13 Red, to some of the same criticism.]  I expected the 11th to be particularly polarizing and it has not disappointed.


12th:  Surprised there was not more complaint about the green, but perhaps whoever complained before remembers that I said here a year or two ago that the big ridge through this green was natural and we just softened it as little as we could get away with.


13th:  As I've explained, this hole was manufactured, although I did not mention that part of the reason for that was to try and avoid having anyone just blow driver right into 13 Red, which would be very dangerous.  That's why the green is long and skinny, which made me think of imitating the 6th at Pacific Dunes in other respects.  We did succeed in making the right side difficult enough that I haven't heard of that being a problem.


14th:  Always thought this was the weakest hole on the course, but lots of people like it.  I guess they like water holes more than I do.  Was shocked by whomever said they loved this hole and did not like 17.


15th:  The fairway contours and green here are pretty much exactly what they were when we started . . . both Bill and I thought this was one of the most natural par-4's on property.  Cutting away some of the left side to create fill for #14 detracted from its visual appeal, and now it just gets lost in the shuffle.


16th:  I tried to make this a "ladies' par 4" from 230 yards, which is one reason it has those bunkers well short of the green, but that did not go over well and we had to build another tee for it.  Was pleased to hear mostly favorable comments about it, since long par-3 holes are generally not well liked.


17th:  Asked and answered.  Nobody asked about the green, though -- I really love this green, which is Eric Iverson's work.  The little hollow front and left was not there to start with.


18th:  A difficult hole to get right, because if you try to get everyone to the crest of the landing area, it's still very difficult for most players, but driving over the hill and down is quite uncomfortable for first-time visitors.*  In that respect, I probably should have made the hole shorter, but I had fallen in love with this green site, which is very close to the way we found it.  Kyle Harris mentioned offline that he is always afraid of blocking his approach up onto the tee of #7 Red, and the proximity of the two holes was indeed a concern early on, because that's one of Bill's best holes and I did not want to do anything to mess it up!  Ultimately, though, fear of going right is what brings the slope at the left of the green into play for more people.  You'd be better off missing short right in one of those front bunkers, than missing the green left, but nobody sees that until they have played it a bunch.


* also, on 18, I was very concerned that we were going to be staring at an awkward half-cut-off view of the clubhouse from 18 tee, depending on what the architect chose to do there.  So, I deliberately aimed the tee shot a bit to the left of it, so the second shot would play down and to the right of it, instead of straight at the building.  But my concern about it led me to get to know the architect for the clubhouse, Albert Alfonso, who became a friend, and he did build the clubhouse four or five feet lower than originally planned in order to address my concerns.  And that interaction is what prompted me to get more involved with the clubhouse architect for Tara Iti, where I think the marriage of the building to the golf course is one of the big reasons everyone loves that golf course so much.


In general, which almost nobody talked about:


Width:  Others have observed in the past that the Red course is more difficult because it takes on the outer edges of the property, and there is a lot of lost-ball bush in play on the perimeter, whereas the Blue gets little of that.  I think that's true, but also we went extra-wide on the Blue course to keep the Cogan grass out of play . . . when in doubt, I'd make the fairway wider, and then we did a lot of clean-up around the margins when we were finished, as well.  The discussion of the 3rd fairway is a good example of that:  going with a right-center bunker and fairway to the right of it gives the slicer much more room; if you built a normal fairway with a bunker on the right edge, it would be stupid to build it that wide.  There were similar decisions on holes 2, 8, 9-11, and 14-15.


Greens contouring:  When the course opened, I heard from a million people that the greens were too severe, including Ron Whitten and Mike Keiser [who seemed to think I should always build flat greens, and not just for him, even though Rich Mack had no problem with the greens on the Blue].  When the Black course opened, people's opinion of the greens on the Blue suddenly softened, and Mike Keiser stopped talking to Gil about new projects and started talking to me again.  :D   So, nobody loves the Black course more than I do.  As for greens contouring, I am used to complaints by now, but the rationale was the same as for the Black:  when you build a hugely wide course where it's hard to lose a ball, there ought to be more challenge around the greens on balance.


Routing:


For the record, the holes on the Blue course that were part of one or another of Bill Coore's original 18-hole routings were the 1st tee [but a different hole from there], the stretch of the 3rd - 4th - 5th [but he didn't have the 5th green on the edge of the bluff], the 8th, and the 15th.  I think he had a hole where #1 went out toward 17 Blue and #2 came back toward Blue 18th green, to hook into #7 Red as the third hole, but the 2nd hole was substantially different than Blue 18; my memory is fuzzy on those details now.


When we started to stretch the routing to 36 holes, the Red course incorporated some holes I had routed at the far east end [10-13, though Bill made 12 & 13 from what I had as three holes] -- and then when we were still short of holes, Bill went and found holes 2-4 on the Red to get us up to 36.  Prior to that we were thinking of going across to use the land that is now holes 12-16 on the Black course, but that would have entailed at least a couple of long holes across unappealing ground in between the courses, and we were grinding for a way to avoid those.


It's likely that in putting two courses on the site, we sacrificed having one course that was even better.  But Mosaic's goal from day one was to build two great courses, and we both felt that the best solution for that was to squeeze them both into the site we used.  And besides, neither one of us wanted to get stuck with using an alternative site, instead.  :D   I remember Rich Mack trying to get me to waver on that, asking if I thought I could take one of the other sites and make as good a course as Bill would make on the first site, and my response was "it could be good, but it could not be as good unless Bill screws up, which he is not going to do."  So, kudos to Gil Hanse for building a course over there that anyone thinks is as good as the first two, because I didn't think he could.[/color]

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2021, 11:05:28 AM »
Tom,


Thank you for taking the time to provide such detailed insights and to copping to what you consider legitimate critiques.


For the record, I commented twice I believe on Number 8. It is one of the best holes that I have played anywhere.


I hope that this exercise does not need to end or at least if SS Blue ends, you do pick another course to pursue it. I think that there are some good suggestions in the other thread for courses by other architects even though I have not played some of them.


Ira
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 11:25:16 AM by Ira Fishman »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2021, 11:35:59 AM »
Tom,

Thanks so much for the detailed analysis.  I didn't give enough time or energy during my one visit to fully appreciate the golf courses.  It would be easier to settle in for a few days now, since there are good accommodations on site.  I was driving an hour in each direction to Lakeland to sleep at the time.

I had thought about the 6th hole overnight, and was going to comment on short par 4s where you hit the ball over a ridge (or hill) and don't see whether you reached the green until you walk to the high spot.  The second time I played #6, I believe I drove it short or just onto the green and three putted from there.

Off the top of my head, hillier examples where you might try to reach the green by cresting the hill on the right line include the 17th at Dismal River (Red) and the 3rd at Old Macdonald (Sahara).  I'm not strong enough to try for the green on those two, but I'm sure many strong young players have tried and at least come close.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2021, 12:58:13 PM »
I too appreciate the detailed analysis in reply #51, its posts like that which keep me coming here day in and day out.

While I've never played SS Blue, I have played enough of Tom's courses to know that for every ball buster hole he throws at you, like 4, 11, or 18, he usually gives you twice as many half par holes in the other direction to give you an opportunity to make it up. At the end of the day its about providing variety of all types on one course: long holes vs short ones, tricky greens vs bowled greens, gentle bunkers vs ones you want no part of, hit it here or else vs options-aplenty, and holes where you're grinding for par vs ones you have a chance at eagle.

P.S.  I'm not calling out any other architects on the site, but I don't recall anyone else saying "Its open season, fire away"...

Drew Maliniak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2021, 01:06:24 PM »
We played the red/blue last October.


Good golf but didn't feel mind-blowing the way Tobacco Road, Bandon, Sweetens/Lookout Mountain, and NGLA felt.


It felt like a public version of Friar's Head or Atlantic City Country Club. SS Blue and Red felt like safer designs, like a nice Starbucks latte.


Enjoyed the par 3s. 


Serious criticism: Not enough backboards and slopes to feed the ball.


When traveling for golf, I want to use the ground game and my imagination fully engaged. 


As an aside, the hotel was incredibly strange. Felt like we were in the 007 movie Quantum of Solace. Keiser understands that most people just want a Pine Valley dorm experience.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2021, 02:55:36 PM »

It felt like a public version of Friar's Head

Serious criticism: Not enough backboards and slopes to feed the ball.

As an aside, the hotel was incredibly strange. Felt like we were in the 007 movie Quantum of Solace. Keiser understands that most people just want a Pine Valley dorm experience.


Most architects would be thrilled to death with the first comment.  I never thought of Friars Head as "safe".  But the client clearly sought two top-100 golf courses, so Tobacco Road and Lookout Mountain would not have satisfied him.


Interesting point about the relative lack of backboards and feeder slopes.  We just did not find as many of those in our routings, for whatever reason.  It could be in part that the mining leftovers were just more abrupt contours that were hard to use in that way -- for example, thinking of 6 Blue, in other circumstances I might have made the dune behind the green as part of a backboard, but it was way too steep for that.  Similarly, the slope to the left of 18 Blue could have been a helping slope coming in from a different angle, but instead we used it to make the hole harder.  Maybe there is a little client influence in there -- he did keep pushing us to make it challenging -- but that didn't have a lot to do with my choices on the greens.


As to the hotel, it's just a different mindset entirely.  A corporate client is always going to be more concerned about whether customers think the place is not fancy ENOUGH, and they are not really spending their own money as Mike Keiser was.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2021, 04:02:40 PM »
My thanks too, Tom, for that detailed post. I've also read your post on Joe's thread, and if I put them together I'd say you provided the 'data' upon which a 'critical analysis' could meaningfully be built.

Or instead, if in the glibly succinct style of a Variety movie review, I might say:

"While eschewing typical Florida resort course aesthetics and ease of play, its quality architecture + high-end amenities make Streamsong Blue a hit with well-heeled snowbirds, and a commercial winner for Mosaic's development arm. This time out the iconoclast didn't have an ocean to frame his work, but happily made out of the Blue what it was meant to be; the result is a firmly well-maintained golf course that will challenge the accomplished while forgiving the hacks who've come along for the ride -- one that's well worth a visit as part of an elite winter getaway".
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 03:31:57 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2021, 05:06:41 PM »

7th hole:  I explained its origin story on a concurrent thread, will have to paste a link here.



Tom,


Thanks for your thoughtful post and adding the link to the 7th hole -

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,69509.msg1670749.html#msg1670749

One question - who/how did the maintenance model get created? It is my favorite thing about Streamsong.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 05:11:30 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2021, 06:49:21 PM »
Mike S:


What do you mean by the "maintenance model" ?

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2021, 08:19:06 PM »
Mike S:


What do you mean by the "maintenance model" ?
Another beautiful aspect of Streamsong is the simplicity of the course. There are two heights-of-cut on the course: green height, and everything else. There is no maintained rough on the 36 holes.
[/size][/color]
https://www.golfdom.com/the-spirit-and-soil-of-streamsong/
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2021, 09:34:38 PM »



But my concern about it led me to get to know the architect for the clubhouse, Albert Alfonso, who became a friend, and he did build the clubhouse four or five feet lower than originally planned in order to address my concerns.  And that interaction is what prompted me to get more involved with the clubhouse architect for Tara Iti, where I think the marriage of the building to the golf course is one of the big reasons everyone loves that golf course so much.






Very interesting...
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2021, 09:38:18 PM »
Mike S:


What do you mean by the "maintenance model" ?
Another beautiful aspect of Streamsong is the simplicity of the course. There are two heights-of-cut on the course: green height, and everything else. There is no maintained rough on the 36 holes.



I'm not sure that is 100% true, but close.  It was a combined decision between Bill and Ben, me, and Rusty Mercer the head superintendent.  We talked a lot about Royal Melbourne early on and trying to mimic that look maintenance-wise.  And it was a pretty simple starting point since there were only two cultivars of grass on the course originally:  it was 419 everywhere, except for an ultradwarf Bermuda on the greens.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2021, 05:24:50 AM »
We talked a lot about Royal Melbourne early on and trying to mimic that look maintenance-wise.


Never thought of Royal Melbourne as the model. I love the look and playing style of "two cuts":




I would love to see a Travis course in the Northeast, Cape A, Hollywood, Garden City, try this as a model. They are all on flatter sites with great greens and would seem to support balls rolling all over...
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2021, 07:59:04 AM »
You can't do it with bentgrass or Poa annua fairways, because the fungicide bill would be through the roof.  If any of those courses were fescue, it would be a different story.


The best parkland course that mows this way is The Valley Club on Montecito.  They have SOME mowed rough but not too much.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2021, 01:57:07 PM »
.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 03:48:56 AM by Bill Brightly »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #66 on: March 22, 2021, 01:57:18 PM »
Thanks Tom! 


I thought the greens were over the top on my first visit but have liked them more and more with repeat visits.   On my most recent visit I preferred them over the Red which is a 180 degree switch.


My first visit was playing in the invitational.  I find I am less tolerant of interesting greens playing stoke play and wonder if my reaction would have been the same if it were a recreational trip.   

Ted Sturges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2021, 10:33:45 AM »
This was very interesting to read. 


I have a serious question for Tom-


I am assuming that it was a ton of fun to have another great golf course designer working on the same property as you to build these two courses (and it probably didn't hurt that you all are friends).  I can't remember, but is this the only time that you have ever worked on side by side projects with another design team?  And...I'm not counting the Sebonack project because that was only one golf course.


Were there more pluses than minuses in having to share the property with someone else?  Would you like to do it again?  Could we please find a client who would be willing to hire you and C&C to do something like this again?


TS

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2021, 11:32:29 AM »
This was very interesting to read. 

I have a serious question for Tom-

I am assuming that it was a ton of fun to have another great golf course designer working on the same property as you to build these two courses (and it probably didn't hurt that you all are friends).  I can't remember, but is this the only time that you have ever worked on side by side projects with another design team?  And...I'm not counting the Sebonack project because that was only one golf course.

Were there more pluses than minuses in having to share the property with someone else?  Would you like to do it again?  Could we please find a client who would be willing to hire you and C&C to do something like this again?



It's pretty rare for any developer to build two courses simultaneously with two different designers.  I guess they had Nicklaus and Palmer working side by side at that project adjacent to the WGHoF years ago?  But I feel certain the two of them [and their crews] did not have lunch or dinner together as often as we did with Bill & Ben's crew.  I probably spent as much time with Bill during the process of Streamsong as I've spent with him the rest of the years I've known him, put together.


In hindsight, it probably wasn't the best way to market the two courses, forcing everyone to choose one over the other right off the bat.  By comparison, Pacific Dunes got to feed off the enthusiasm and ranking for Bandon Dunes.  If they'd both opened at the same time, I'd guess that one or the other [or maybe even both] would not be ranked as highly today.


We thought we were going to be doing this again in New Zealand, right now, but there was not enough water to grow in two courses at once, so Bill got to go first, and we will follow up next year.  That was a bummer on multiple levels, not least that I would have liked to spend some time in NZ's COVID bubble this winter.  That was probably our best chance, anyway -- I don't see another such project on the horizon.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2021, 02:24:20 PM »
"Greens contouring:  When the course opened, I heard from a million people that the greens were too severe, including Ron Whitten and Mike Keiser [who seemed to think I should always build flat greens, and not just for him, even though Rich Mack had no problem with the greens on the Blue].  When the Black course opened, people's opinion of the greens on the Blue suddenly softened, and Mike Keiser stopped talking to Gil about new projects and started talking to me again.  :D   So, nobody loves the Black course more than I do.  As for greens contouring, I am used to complaints by now, but the rationale was the same as for the Black:  when you build a hugely wide course where it's hard to lose a ball, there ought to be more challenge around the greens on balance."

This quote made me laugh. I really enjoyed the greens on the Blue and while difficult, understood why. Some of my playing partners want all holes (especially short 4s and 5s) to be easy two putts. I like the challenge. The Black's greens certainly took the large, undulating concept to another level. Reading Mike Keiser stopped talking to Gil because his greens were even more severe just hit my funny bone for some reason. As Tom said, there ought to be more of a challenge around the greens when you have that much width. I will take width and challenging greens any day of the week.
Mr Hurricane

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2021, 11:34:29 PM »
The tee shot on #8 seems to defy my understanding on what to do with any kind of wind, which is kind of awesome and also very frustrating because that hole can totally ruin your round and in a way that just reaches out and grabs you. 


And 17 and 18 are just too long for a resort course finish where a large percentage of golfers playing the course in winter haven’t played golf in months and will finish like dogs on that last 3/4 mile back to the clubhouses. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2021, 10:24:20 AM »
The tee shot on #8 seems to defy my understanding on what to do with any kind of wind, which is kind of awesome and also very frustrating because that hole can totally ruin your round and in a way that just reaches out and grabs you. 


And 17 and 18 are just too long for a resort course finish where a large percentage of golfers playing the course in winter haven’t played golf in months and will finish like dogs on that last 3/4 mile back to the clubhouses.


I typically don't build hard finishes and the one time I do, this is what I get!  :'(


When I go back to my old ways and I'm criticized for not making a challenging finish, I'm blaming you, James.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #72 on: March 24, 2021, 10:27:19 AM »
The tee shot on #8 seems to defy my understanding on what to do with any kind of wind, which is kind of awesome and also very frustrating because that hole can totally ruin your round and in a way that just reaches out and grabs you. 

And 17 and 18 are just too long for a resort course finish where a large percentage of golfers playing the course in winter haven’t played golf in months and will finish like dogs on that last 3/4 mile back to the clubhouses.

I typically don't build hard finishes and the one time I do, this is what I get!  :'(


When I go back to my old ways and I'm criticized for not making a challenging finish, I'm blaming you, James.


I thought Ballyneal 17 and 18 was a pretty tough finish too, so I don't think you're in bad shape.  ;)


P.S.  Pac Dunes is no cake walk either..

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2021, 12:23:40 PM »
The tee shot on #8 seems to defy my understanding on what to do with any kind of wind, which is kind of awesome and also very frustrating because that hole can totally ruin your round and in a way that just reaches out and grabs you. 

And 17 and 18 are just too long for a resort course finish where a large percentage of golfers playing the course in winter haven’t played golf in months and will finish like dogs on that last 3/4 mile back to the clubhouses.

I typically don't build hard finishes and the one time I do, this is what I get!  :'(


When I go back to my old ways and I'm criticized for not making a challenging finish, I'm blaming you, James.


I thought Ballyneal 17 and 18 was a pretty tough finish too, so I don't think you're in bad shape.  ;)


P.S.  Pac Dunes is no cake walk either..

Kalen -

Are there any two hole finishing stretches that you don't find difficult?  ;)
Mr Hurricane

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Serious Criticism: Streamsong Blue
« Reply #74 on: March 24, 2021, 01:10:20 PM »
The tee shot on #8 seems to defy my understanding on what to do with any kind of wind, which is kind of awesome and also very frustrating because that hole can totally ruin your round and in a way that just reaches out and grabs you. 

And 17 and 18 are just too long for a resort course finish where a large percentage of golfers playing the course in winter haven’t played golf in months and will finish like dogs on that last 3/4 mile back to the clubhouses.

I typically don't build hard finishes and the one time I do, this is what I get!  :'(

When I go back to my old ways and I'm criticized for not making a challenging finish, I'm blaming you, James.

I thought Ballyneal 17 and 18 was a pretty tough finish too, so I don't think you're in bad shape.  ;)

P.S.  Pac Dunes is no cake walk either..

Kalen -

Are there any two hole finishing stretches that you don't find difficult?  ;)


Damn it Jim....shhhh!  ;D  But yes that's probably a short list.

17 and 18 at Ballyneal are quite long and if I recall correctly the fairway on 17 was a hogsback.  But supposedly the prevailing wind is from the Southwest, which would certainly have helped, as the day I was out there with Andy it was dead still.  And i'm not the only one who thinks PD 18 is tough, although 17 may just be me cause i can't work the ball right to left to save my life.

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