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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Temptation and how an individual player deals with it is, IMO, and others may well disagree, a key aspect within golf.
So, how do your own golfing expectations (competition/hcp/scoring/distance etc) and your evaluation of the strengths and weaknesses of your own game relate to temptation within golf course architecture?
Atb

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Temptation is one of the most important aspects of golf course design/strategy.  It even impacts the weakest golfer who might have only a 30 yard carry over a bunker but know they probably should play around it but the temptation forces them to try. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
If I've driven over 40 miles to play any given course, I didn't drive all that way to lay up.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
If I've driven over 40 miles to play any given course, I didn't drive all that way to lay up.....


Of course, we know the chap who laid up left with a mid-iron on CPC's 16 and not because he was protecting a good score, and one of his playing companion who was couple under par that didn't and should have.  Who do you think was the smart one?


This is a Line of Charm vs Line of Instinct theme I think.  I am of the type who is drawn to the direct line which is often where the trouble or the more difficult approach lie.  For example, the split fairway at TangleRidge #18, off the tee, the more direct and tempting  shot is to the right, but the LoC is to the left fairway.  I think that you got that split fairway correct as there is at least a half stroke advantage if you make the right fairway, and a full shot or more if you miss.  BTW, my son made an eagle there with two putts to win an NTPGA Junior Player's tour event by one stroke.  He is a risk taker and often gives in to temptation, at times to his detriment.  I suspect that Andrew is the same way.   


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lou,


Thanks for the shout out on 18 TR, and I agree it works.  I look at the old TR plans and realize there is probably room to push that tee back if it is now required for longer hitters.  As to risk taking,


I have seen a few, some by my former associates, that really don't seem to. Or, at Texas Star, I have never figured out the idea behind their 15th(?) First, it's too short to really need the distance advantage, and second, the straight, easiest to hit lay up route gives you a similar distance approach shot, so why risk the lake, narrow fw, etc. to play a driver?


I think Andrew is pretty measured.  He always was a pretty consistent ball striker, so if he could carry the lake, he aimed that way.    Similarly, in his few plays of Rangers GC, he summarizes his round by noting that the fw sand bunkers really just take the driver out of your hand, and there is no advantage to playing to a narrow area with a driver, at least on any hole that he can reach in two shots with a layup.  Playing with him and his friends, and other high quality players, including Colbert, Wadkins, Nelson, Elkington, makes me think the oft heralded Golden Age strategies really don't work as much as they may have once used to. 


And, I say may have, because no one ever really statistically measured who plays where and why, as many golf teachers do today.  Good golfers today really have more info at their disposal when assessing risk, and that's before they look through their range finders.  I have always asked myself if:


- It makes more sense to risk a fw hazard with a driver to avoid a greenside hazard while playing a < 5 iron in. Statistically, I doubt it is.


- It makes more sense to play for an open treen front (if you don't hit ground balls) or, if like tee shots with OB, it's better to come in from the same side as the greenside hazard, aim away to the far green edge, and curve it back, risking by degrees how much you want to come close to the pin and ending up short siding yourself.


- Or to have an alternate fw with risk for less than gaining a shot (i.e., reachable par 5 or 4 with drive) or at least 3 clubs less approach distance (from Brad Faxon).  On a par 4, that takes a 460+ hole with at least a 45 degree dogleg for the "safe route: to create.


- Or to place risk holes anywhere early in the round, where you can't possibly know where the match stands, which helps determine if it is worth the risk.  I guess in stroke play, earlier risk holes make some sense anywhere, as a good player will plan out where they need to make their birdies, but still, it's only the last few holes, down a stroke or hole, where it is absolutely compelling to risk a shot beyond your skill level out of necessity, so they probably work best there.


- And in general, I think golfers have gotten like old football coaches, i.e., more conservative as time goes on, based on memories of past results from their sometimes goofy risk taking.  So, designing those Golden Age type risks really appeals perhaps to average golfers over better ones.  That's not bad, but when cost is an object (it usually is) is putting that second fw in has to be questioned, which is why I rarely use them, no more than once per course. 


Even then, a la Cowboys no. 9, it has been removed mostly because it was conceptually flawed from the start. (i.e., the safe left route was shorter, and even the sand bunker front left wasn't enough to steer golfers right for the angle.  And, after we removed the front half of that bunker for cost savings, it really put the tee shot choice factor to nothing, just play left.



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
I think this is one of those things where the generational attitude toward golf is changing.


There have always been two classes of golfers:  one that's trying to shoot their best score every time out, and another who are out there for fun and "didn't drive all this way to lay up".  The proper balance of risk and reward is different for the two groups, and therefore, so is their appreciation of the design.  The second group prefers courses with more daring risks and rewards . . . the kind they love to pull off, that the rational player would avoid as a dumb risk.


In the Sweetens Cove thread, you can see how the new generation leans even more toward the "risk" side of the spectrum.  Several posters spoke of playing around four times and trying all sorts of "hero" shots that a rational golfer would assess as stupid course management.  So it's not surprising that the two groups might have wildly different views of the design . . . except, I guess, to certain young people who think anyone who doesn't love it is a buffoon.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Plenty of examples over the years of the plodders calling the risk lovers favorites buffoons too.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Have we reached the age of X-Golf?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
I can’t hit it out of my own shadow and have wholly embraced the phrase “tack your way across the hole”. :)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
My only hope is that people aren't being unfairly targeted.  If let it fly and don't worry about score is your motto great, but at the same time don't get after grinders cause they want to break 80 (as long as they are reasonably keeping up and not slowing down the whole course, you know the original "Golden Rule").  I've certainly played plenty of both types in my life and they were each fun in their own right.

P.S.  To be perfectly honest, some of the most fun I've had on the golf course is the work/charity 4 man booze scrambles.  Not only does it build team comradery among friends, but you get to try all kinds of crazy shots with zero pressure.





Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
 8)  Tim,


I prefer the old Hank Stram phrase: "matriculate down the field," now that was epic sports miking...


I got into gca to play better, smarter, but  "I never saw a sucker pin i didn't like" so have to agree with Tom D, there's two types of people, those who divide things in two and those who don't, split personalities not-with-standing. ::)
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

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