[Phil Burr]

I've attached a link to a GolfWeek story about LPGA course setups that seems like a great follow-up to the recent thread about shorter tees.  This site celebrates drivable par-4s as great architecture yet I'm hard-pressed to think of a drivable par-4 played on the LPGA tour.  There's some really interesting data about how the USGA did a great job of leveling out the differences between the mens' and womens' games when they hosted back-to-back US Opens at Pinehurst.  The story is well-researched and I think merits a look for anyone on this site.  I'm not aware of any female contributors here, which is a shame.  Then again, I'm a relative newbie and would be delighted to be proved wrong.  It would be interesting to gain insight from women who've been involved with GCA.  Sadly, Alice Dye is no longer available.  Perhaps Jan Stephenson or Amy Alcott would be important voices.


Women’s golf: Course setup is holding back scoring on the LPGA, beyond (usatoday.com)

[John Kavanaugh]

Odd to have a cover shot of the golfer who shot 60 at my home course this year. Which so happens to have contained a drivable par 4.

[Phil Burr]

What hole at Four Seasons did they make drivable?  I've played the course a dozen times but always from the back tees.  I ask from a simple point of ignorance as to the ability of the course to adapt to the great female players.

[Phil Burr]

Giving it a moment of thought, are you referring to #16 (old #15 when it was Osprey Ridge)?

[John Kavanaugh]

Must be. The tournament tees are moved to the senior tees on 15. Three out of the four par 5's are also reachable.


The thing I love about hosting an LPGA event is that they don't get the course in any better shape than I do on a weekly basis. The course is only closed for the exact time they are playing. I recently called TPC Sawgrass to play and they close a month in front to the tournament. Sounds like the article calls for a more drastic approach to maintenance. Sad.

[John Kavanaugh]

Here are the tournament results. It is a tournament of champions but the entire filed is under par.


https://golf.diamondresorts.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/2021-lpga-results.pdf

[Matt_Cohn]

So the PGA Tour guys hit it too far and we should roll back the ball so they can't reach par 5's with mid-irons. But the LPGA would be more exciting if we shortened the courses so they could hit par 5's with mid irons.


Well, which is it?

[David_Tepper]

I am very interested in seeing how the Lake Course at the Olympic Club will be set up for the Women's Open in June.  Hopefully at least some spectators will be allowed by then.

[Tom_Doak]

So the PGA Tour guys hit it too far and we should roll back the ball so they can't reach par 5's with mid-irons. But the LPGA would be more exciting if we shortened the courses so they could hit par 5's with mid irons.


Well, which is it?

Matt:


The gist of it is that the women think they are being set up to look like inferior players, because they play more demanding setups relative to their games.


I'm not sure that is true.  They don't get as many cheap birdies; they have to hit longer clubs into greens, and the % of eagles or par-5's hit in two is much less.  There is some discussion that from 150 yards, the women are more accurate, but you aren't comparing apples to apples there, since the guys are hitting to firmer greens and pins that are more tucked, and they aren't necessarily aiming at the flag.


It's an interesting change because back when I first got into golf, the best players on the women's tour complained openly that courses were being set up too EASY, so that Laura Baugh and the other cover girls of the day would have a better chance of getting to the weekend.

[Greg Smith]

Made a fun trip to the 2009 US Womens Open at Saucon Valley (Old).  The 15th hole was a 252-yard par four, IIRC.  That hole would be about 330 from the back tees.  Now, an attempt to drive that hole might not have been advisable -- would have been a mighty small window to fit the shot.  But it was definitely possible.

[Tom_Doak]

My earlier post was after a discussion on the topic with a woman friend who had just read it.  I just went and read the article myself, and I'm more confused than ever.


The article is too long and gets off on some tangents, but basically they are saying that the LPGA players should be playing from 6000 or 6200 yards so they can play the course like the PGA Tour players do.


LPGA professionals are much better golfers than 90% of the guys on this Discussion Group; indeed, one of the great things about watching them is that they are relatable in terms of how far they hit it, but amazing in terms of how consistently they hit it.  So if they should be playing from 6000 yards, what length should I be playing from?


I think Ally Macintosh had it spot on the other day:  a set of tees at 7000 yards [if you insist], a second set at 6000, and the forward ones at 5000.

[Matt_Cohn]

Using this season’s PGA tour numbers but last year’s LPGA tour stats given that their season has barely started:


First place in GIR on the LPGA tour was 77.6%. First place on the PGA tour is 74.9%

10th place in GIR on the LPGA tour was 71.5%.
10th place on the PGA tour is 72%.


50th place on the LPGA tour was 67.7%.
50th place on the PGA tour is 69.3%



100th place on the LPGA tour was 64.2%.
100th place on the PGA tour is 67%.


The numbers say that setups are comparable for the top 25 or so players on each tour. After that, there is more depth on the PGA tour, so the LPGA numbers drop more quickly. The majority of LPGA players hit slightly fewer greens— about 1-2 less per tournament—than do the majority of PGA players.

[Matthew Rose]

LPGA professionals are much better golfers than 90% of the guys on this Discussion Group; indeed, one of the great things about watching them is that they are relatable in terms of how far they hit it, but amazing in terms of how consistently they hit it.

I used to live on a course that now hosts an LPGA event. As far as I can tell, they play from the same tees I did, which is about 6300-6400 yards.

20-25 under par is what it takes to win the event each year. I wouldn't say it was a difficult course, as I shot some very good scores there relative to my own ability.... but they made it look like a video game.

It's one thing to hit 13-14 greens and shoot 71 or 72... but when you gotta birdie half the holes you play, that's something else, and something I've never had even on my best day.

I think what makes it compelling, besides the fact that their game is more relatable, is that I felt like they really were playing the same course, having seen it from the time it was constructed and seeded and knowing it fairly intimately. The rough lines were the same; the green speeds looked like they were the same, and most of the pin positions were familiar.

Lately that's becoming much more interesting to me than watching Bryson DeChambeau trying to drive a par-five.

[Mike_Clayton]

My earlier post was after a discussion on the topic with a woman friend who had just read it.  I just went and read the article myself, and I'm more confused than ever.


The article is too long and gets off on some tangents, but basically they are saying that the LPGA players should be playing from 6000 or 6200 yards so they can play the course like the PGA Tour players do.


LPGA professionals are much better golfers than 90% of the guys on this Discussion Group; indeed, one of the great things about watching them is that they are relatable in terms of how far they hit it, but amazing in terms of how consistently they hit it.  So if they should be playing from 6000 yards, what length should I be playing from?


I think Ally Macintosh had it spot on the other day:  a set of tees at 7000 yards [if you insist], a second set at 6000, and the forward ones at 5000.

I play a lot with Su Oh - She swings it at 100mph with a driver and hits it around 250 yards. Playing anything under 6500 is pitch and putt for her - relatively. And she's average length out there.
What the column didn't mention is in 1985 Andy Bean led the driving distance on the PGA Tour with 278.2 yards and Lon Hinkle was 12th at 271.9
In 2019 - the last full season on the LPGA -  Anne Van Dam was longest at 283.8 and Linnea Strom was 12th at 271.5.
I get the iron trajectories are different and men can stop the ball quicker but was anyone suggesting the PGA Tour courses were too long in 1985 and that they should be back at 6400 yards?


In 2019 here were four women who averaged longer than 1985 Greg Norman (3rd at 276.6)

[Thomas Dai]

This is somewhat confusing.
On the one hand the modern men’s pro game is slagged off for being one dimensional and boring given its oft perceived reliance on distance from the tee, short irons into greens and low scores in relation artificial par.
On the other hand the current Women’s pro game is often complimented for being less one dimensional and less boring with, for example, its greater variety of clubs hit for second etc shots.
And now there’s a desire to make the Women’s pro game more like the men’s pro game?
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

Check out these scorecards at the recent Tournament of Champions. What more could they want?


https://www.golfchannel.com/tours/lpga/2021/diamond-resorts-tournament-champions-presented-insurance-office-america


Click the players name to see the scorecard.


JK shot 9 under on the back nine on the way to a 60. She bettered her final three holes from the day before by 7 shots.

[Tom_Doak]

This is somewhat confusing.
On the one hand the modern men’s pro game is slagged off for being one dimensional and boring given its oft perceived reliance on distance from the tee, short irons into greens and low scores in relation artificial par.
On the other hand the current Women’s pro game is often complimented for being less one dimensional and less boring with, for example, its greater variety of clubs hit for second etc shots.
And now there’s a desire to make the Women’s pro game more like the men’s pro game?
Atb

Thomas:


What they really want is to be PAID like the men.  And they think if they were perceived as more equal to the men in ability, by shooting the same scores, they would be more respected and paid more.


Pay equality is a divisive topic.  It's not equal now "because markets" -- TV revenue is much higher for the men, because sponsors pay more to advertise there.  But it's sort of a Catch-22, in that the women are perceived as inferior partly BECAUSE they are paid less.


The same argument rages in US Soccer where the women's team, far more successful than the men's team, want to be paid equally with the men.  Both are being paid by US Soccer, so arguably the decision is completely up to them, whether one team brings in more revenue than the other, or not.  This is not true for most LPGA events, but it IS true for the US Women's Open and for the Women's British Open, so the golfers might exert more pressure there on the grounds of "fairness".  But if you look at who is on the USGA Executive Committee [not how gender-balanced it is, but what their jobs are], you'll see that it's probably going to be an uphill battle.

[John Kavanaugh]

The LPGA needs to wake up and settle this lawsuit. You need to treat everyone equally if you want to be treated equal yourself.


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/transgender-woman-sues-lpga

[John Kavanaugh]

I could be wrong. Looks like the LPGA now allows all women to play. Congrats.


https://www.outsports.com/2020/9/3/21419122/mianne-bagger-trans-athlete-golf-women-policy-podcast

[Michael Goldstein]

One of the reasons they don't play short par fours is because the pace of play is already so slow, they don't want to make it even slower.   


We promoted an LPGA event on a short flexible course (Windross Farm) and it wasn't until the weekend that some of the short fours were set up to be drivable. 


The LPGA players hit it relative to the classic old courses. Unfortunately they don't play on too many classics.... 

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