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Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2021, 11:53:28 AM »
2.  ON CULT COURSES

By comparison, Sweetens Cove and Wolf Point and Winter Park are in tiny, tiny markets that also happen to be architectural wastelands.  There is not much around them to compare them to, and nothing whose pedigree is firmly in place to peg them on the pecking order like Pinehurst et al do for Tobacco Road.  Their charms are magnified a million times by the size and structure of the internet, which seems like free word-of-mouth advertising:  but remember, GIGO goes double on the internet, because you don't know who are the people whose word you're taking, or whether they are even real people!



Architectural wasteland, sure. But Orlando is about as far from a tiny golf market as it is possible to get.


Adam,


As a member of the Gca publishing world, where do you go to find serious criticism?


I think the guys at The Fried Egg do a nice job of explaining Gca, but they tend to go light on the critiques. The reviewers on Top100 Courses seem to be the most willing to attach their names to critiques.


Ira


You can only be totally independent and objective if you have complete financial freedom. Fundamentally as a content provider that means users paying for your content (unless you are so rich that you just publish for the hell of it).
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2021, 12:08:18 PM »
About serious criticism in gca, HL Mencken might've said:

"No one can write it, no one wants to read it, and nobody cares. Not even those who write it and read it!"

Subjectivity is a terrible thing to waste -- but we've got nothing else to waste except time and money.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2021, 12:23:42 PM »
All of us non-architects are beneficiaries of the architects and other professionals who contribute erudite commentary. The rest of us are here to learn, to absorb and hopefully communicate our acquired knowledge to those in power to make changes to courses that we know and care about. I’ve learned enough here from Doak, Mahaffey, Young, Klein, Morrissett , Fine, Lawrence et seq to make a difference in decisions about renovations, tree removal and other course projects at a number of great courses. It’s not that I’m in any way an expert, but I like to think that a lot of us rank amateurs (contextual pun intended) can learn and spread the word.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 12:26:24 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2021, 12:29:24 PM »

You can only be totally independent and objective if you have complete financial freedom. Fundamentally as a content provider that means users paying for your content (unless you are so rich that you just publish for the hell of it).


Just publishing for the hell of it does not require you to be rich, in this era.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2021, 12:38:19 PM »
As mentioned above, this is an interesting thread.


A couple of months ago I started a thread on Mid Pines not being *considered* the best course in the Sand Hills and the main response I seemed to get back is "because its not." After that the thread devolved into a "I have 10 plays in Pinehurst, which courses should I play?"


It's also interesting that Tobacco Road is mentioned. I played there on the same trip after having not been there for many years and loved it. After I played I posted on Twitter on 1/3/21: Tobacco Road manages to succeed in all the ways other modern big name courses, such as Mammoth Dunes, have fallen short. TR provides visual intimidation paired with supreme strategy and, in the end, forgiveness and FUN. Why isn't TR in the Top 100 US?!" I received a fair amount of interesting comments to that post, and I planned to post a thread here, but after Mid Pines I just didn't feel like it would really drive an interesting discussion.


Why? Well you could compare TR to the new #4. I don't think its even close which the better golf course is but few here would openly post something negative about a Gil Hanse / Caveman course. #4 is a fine course, with some cool holes built on a not-as-good-as-you'd-think site, but is it a Top 100 golf course in the US? I don't think so. It throws every modern minimalist trick at you...wide fairways, scraggly bunkers, internal putting contours, etc. etc. but it all felt so contrived when a place like Tobacco Road feels so much more authentic and interesting.


So, yes, I agree with the general premise of the original post. There is a lot of group think out there, both with the NLU/Sweetens/Zac Blair crowd as well as here. Not sure what's driving that, but it's there.


I think it would be interesting to pull this thread back up in a few years when The Tree Farm is considered a cult course?  :)


Pat:


You touched a lot of hot buttons there in one post!  Good for you.


One difference between Tobacco Road and Mammoth Dunes is who owns them.  That's also a difference between TR and Pinehurst #4.  One of them is a huge advertiser in many golf publications, the other is not.


I would love to get into a discussion of Pinehurst #4, which I walked on my recent trip also, but Tim Martin would throw a fit, so I suggest you start that as a separate topic.  As Mike Young says, it's difficult anymore to find honest criticism because designers' names and reputations are so strongly set in advance.  The Tree Farm is a perfect example:  Zac Blair has never built anything yet, and already there are a million guys who have made up their minds about his work.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2021, 12:43:27 PM »

I think, given the site and constraints, the golf course is terrific. I think the par-3 holes hold up incredibly well to almost anything you find on a new C&C or Doak course.

My appreciation of WP9 though does come from the entire experience, though. How can it not...small clubhouse/patio, no carts, quick play, interesting golf course, for less than $20 in a metropolitan area?




The first bit there is a very good critique, it's specific and it invites comparison.  The part about the atmosphere is fine, but seems to outweigh the first bit for too many people.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2021, 12:51:15 PM »
Pat, Tom - your exchange brought this to mind:
that there are three potential 'points of focus' in whatever someone writes about a golf course -- ie the writer himself, the course, or the rationale for writing

*I* think that Course X is the best in the region because...

or

I think that *Course X* is the best in the region because...

or

I think that Course X is the best in the region *because*

It's not always obvious where the focus lies, but for whatever reasons -- eg the nature and function of social media -- these days the focus seems most often to be placed on 'Course X', followed in close second place by a focus on 'I', and with the 'because' bringing up the rear in distant third

« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 12:53:06 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2021, 12:54:42 PM »
As mentioned above, this is an interesting thread.


A couple of months ago I started a thread on Mid Pines not being *considered* the best course in the Sand Hills and the main response I seemed to get back is "because its not." After that the thread devolved into a "I have 10 plays in Pinehurst, which courses should I play?"


It's also interesting that Tobacco Road is mentioned. I played there on the same trip after having not been there for many years and loved it. After I played I posted on Twitter on 1/3/21: Tobacco Road manages to succeed in all the ways other modern big name courses, such as Mammoth Dunes, have fallen short. TR provides visual intimidation paired with supreme strategy and, in the end, forgiveness and FUN. Why isn't TR in the Top 100 US?!" I received a fair amount of interesting comments to that post, and I planned to post a thread here, but after Mid Pines I just didn't feel like it would really drive an interesting discussion.


Why? Well you could compare TR to the new #4. I don't think its even close which the better golf course is but few here would openly post something negative about a Gil Hanse / Caveman course. #4 is a fine course, with some cool holes built on a not-as-good-as-you'd-think site, but is it a Top 100 golf course in the US? I don't think so. It throws every modern minimalist trick at you...wide fairways, scraggly bunkers, internal putting contours, etc. etc. but it all felt so contrived when a place like Tobacco Road feels so much more authentic and interesting.


So, yes, I agree with the general premise of the original post. There is a lot of group think out there, both with the NLU/Sweetens/Zac Blair crowd as well as here. Not sure what's driving that, but it's there.


I think it would be interesting to pull this thread back up in a few years when The Tree Farm is considered a cult course?  :)


Pat:


You touched a lot of hot buttons there in one post!  Good for you.


One difference between Tobacco Road and Mammoth Dunes is who owns them.  That's also a difference between TR and Pinehurst #4.  One of them is a huge advertiser in many golf publications, the other is not.


I would love to get into a discussion of Pinehurst #4, which I walked on my recent trip also, but Tim Martin would throw a fit, so I suggest you start that as a separate topic.  As Mike Young says, it's difficult anymore to find honest criticism because designers' names and reputations are so strongly set in advance.  The Tree Farm is a perfect example:  Zac Blair has never built anything yet, and already there are a million guys who have made up their minds about his work.


Start the thread and I guarantee I won’t participate. Sorry that I don’t serve up softballs here for you like most. Have at it!😊

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2021, 12:57:58 PM »
Every time we get into this conversation about ranking and criticism I always think about similar conversations about wine and art.  It is always easier to have a settled consensus about old things in art, wine, and golf than new things.


Judging the CORRECT “place” of a course built 10 years ago is just impossible.  But it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2021, 01:02:57 PM »

I'm not sure about all that Blake. I get the academic version, and of course academics like to push the empirical or academic method.
But in the end, isn't art about the emotions it stirs? How did the critics judge a Picasso? A Tobacco Road? I fear that this method can, as Sir Ted Robinson described in his TED talk. "educate the creativity out". Ultimately I believe we need to start by deciding if golf architecture is art or engineering? Engineers can be creative so I don't mean to be pithy. But what I often hear among the well traveled educated golf builders when they critique seems to be more engineer based than artistic. And of course its simpler to talk about greens slopes that are too steep/flat and bunkers that wash rather than composition.




You are right that when confronted with something they never would have dared to build, fellow designers tend to fall back on technical criticisms, though it is also true that technical details DO matter in the long term.  I happened to see Tobacco Road immediately after a strong rain -- it had to be closed, and there is significant washout damage to be fixed every time they get a big rain.  Its inspiration, Pine Valley, has some of the same problems actually.


Talking about composition, on the other hand, seems fruitless to me.  There are a certain number of ways you can create tension in the golfer's mind, and some architects go for that, and some avoid it altogether.  Unfortunately, one of the things that can create good composition [in most people's eyes] is laying down a lot of hazards that look good but only punish the weaker golfer.  I am not saying everything has to be minimalist, just that most people's idea of "cool" leads to excess.  That's one of the best things about Wolf Point, actually, there is not too much of that.


I guess my take is that it is easy to love some of these places if you are willing to just accept them for what they are.  Sweetens Cove is a riot, but it caters to a certain type of player.  Wolf Point's steep greens work better at a different speed than what most people demand now.  Cruden Bay is not there to host The Open Championship.  But once you start thinking about RANKING them, in fairness, you should apply the same standards you do to every other great course.  And maybe that's another reason why rankings have hurt the game.


But I do agree with Blake, it would be nice if more people could analyze WHY the 6th hole stirs their emotions, instead of just insisting that it's great because it does.

[size=78%]  [/size]

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2021, 01:14:31 PM »
Every time we get into this conversation about ranking and criticism I always think about similar conversations about wine and art.  It is always easier to have a settled consensus about old things in art, wine, and golf than new things.

Judging the CORRECT “place” of a course built 10 years ago is just impossible.  But it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try.


Well of course it is EASIER to have critique something when there is already a settled consensus for you to position your opinion against.


And I'm not sure there is such a thing as a CORRECT place, since this is all subjective.  But it's not impossible!  I had Sand Hills pegged "correctly" when it was still just mowed out prairie grasses.  It's just not foolproof.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2021, 01:18:45 PM »
Pat, Tom - your exchange brought this to mind:
that there are three potential 'points of focus' in whatever someone writes about a golf course -- ie the writer himself, the course, or the rationale for writing

*I* think that Course X is the best in the region because...

or

I think that *Course X* is the best in the region because...

or

I think that Course X is the best in the region *because*

It's not always obvious where the focus lies, but for whatever reasons -- eg the nature and function of social media -- these days the focus seems most often to be placed on 'Course X', followed in close second place by a focus on 'I', and with the 'because' bringing up the rear in distant third


I think it depends on where you put the # symbol, but I am too old to understand it for sure.  ;)

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2021, 01:45:20 PM »
I'm not sure about all that Blake. I get the academic version, and of course academics like to push the empirical or academic method.
But in the end, isn't art about the emotions it stirs? How did the critics judge a Picasso? A Tobacco Road?
A serious critique cannot just be about emotion. Emotion is the result of something, so if it's your only consideration then you're skipping over whatever stirred it. A viewer can have their own metrics for what they deem important, but if their only consideration is emotion then that's not serious art criticism. That's essentially what I mean by going from 1 to 4.


Picasso was judged on much more than emotion, but maybe Mike Strantz isn't? Picasso's 1907 Les Demoiselles d’Avignon stirred a lot of negative emotion until people thought about what came before it, why Picasso chose to do something different, and what it meant. Then you study it more and realize it's rooted in formal composition, balanced, an advanced understanding of color theory, strongly iconographic (after Picasso went to a show featuring African masks), and you appreciate more why it was the impetus for Modernism.


Strantz work incites some strong opinions, but I'm not sure what percent of those opining could really tell you why they feel that way.  Doesn't mean there isn't a reason, it may just mean they can't articulate it. All the more reason for those that can articulate it to do so.

Quote
I fear that this method can, as Sir Ted Robinson described in his TED talk. "educate the creativity out". Ultimately I believe we need to start by deciding if golf architecture is art or engineering? Engineers can be creative so I don't mean to be pithy. But what I often hear among the well traveled educated golf builders when they critique seems to be more engineer based than artistic. And of course its simpler to talk about greens slopes that are too steep/flat and bunkers that wash rather than composition.
I operate under the assumption that art and engineering exist on a spectrum and some sites need more of one than the other.  Not sure you need to decide if/or. Golf has to be functional, so engineering critiques hold merit, but there's far less people who can critique that seriously.


For instance, the Sweeten's Cove is a tough site to drain. It's really easy to say there are too many catch basins that hold water for too long near the greens, but it's hard to critique the drainage system without knowing what other options were available. So am I in a position to critique the stormwater engineering? Why did they do what they do, what were their constraints, what could they have done differently, etc. Maybe what they have is the best possible solution for the site?


Maybe that's the difference between rating and critiquing. If I'm rating it, I don't care what their constraints were, my ball is in a puddle on a sunny day. If I'm critiquing, I care more about why the designer did what they did, and that requires a deeper understanding of the subject matter.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 02:05:06 PM by Blake Conant »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2021, 02:00:45 PM »
Its difficult to be be seriously critical of the vast percentage of courses courses mentioned in rankings, on this site or many other places because

1. Almost all the courses discussed are at least good. It really is fine tooth comb stuff which often comes down to preference.

2. Some courses are so cheap to play that there is no point in hammering the negatives.

3. Afraid to offend.

4. Does anybody really care?

5. Many people are more concerned about the experience of the day, customer service, conditioning or whatever. I can't say as I blame them either! The day can be made much more enjoyable or not by all sorts of issues which have nothing to do with architecture.

6. So much about architecture is site based. For a layman to parse between the site and what was done to that site is near on impossible.   

I try to be honest an open about my photo tours.  I am not afraid to call something rubbish if I think it is. But I have had quite a few unpleasant encounters from owners, managers etc.

I have long thought there is far less quality gap between famous courses than rankings suggest...and that many, many other courses have just as good architecture, but on lesser land or the architecture is less grand. People don't buy this PoV because of the emotional aspect of design.   

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 02:03:28 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Chris Mavros

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2021, 02:04:54 PM »
While there are certainly cult/niche courses out there, it goes beyond that to cult designers and even cult design takes or positions within GCA. 


Initially, while Sweeten's is certainly one of the darlings of social media, I was able to play it back in 2015 when it was relatively unknown. I certainly didn't know anything about it when I stepped out of my car.  I was supposed to play Lookout Mountain that day when we were rained out and found out that SC was open.  I went around three times and enjoyed it a lot.  Variety, character, formidable vexing greens, yet difficult to lose your ball and multiple ways to attack the holes.  I saw it as nine holes that could be as fun or as challenging as you wanted them to be and not once during those 27 holes did I have a boring shot.  It was the passion project of King and Collins, both of whom likely thought that might be their only opportunity to showcase their craft in the way they wanted and expressed it in detail throughout. 


I've wondered before, however, why a place like the Skyway course at Lincoln Park, 20 minutes from Manhattan, doesn't get similar social media treatment.  It's nine holes as well, created from a former Superfund site and is wonderfully firm and fast with wind being a factor more often than not.  It doesn't have the visual panache of SC but there isn't a public course around that plays the way it does.  Its affordability, accessibility and walkability, not to mention its location, make it worthy of a lot of attention.  Yet it doesn't have that cult status or social media pilgrimage worthy title.  My guess is this is because it doesn't need any of that.  Because of its location, its tee sheet is pretty much booked day in and day out.  It addressed an overwhelming demand in that area and is essentially accomplishing its purpose.  Corica Park South falls into this similarly, yet I imagine there are some other issues at play there. 


I see cult or niche as another word for trendy.  If one goes to Winter Park or SC and posts photos of them at the course or whatever, that will get validated a lot more than if that same person posts photos of Skyway.  Inherently, it's easier for that person to heap praise on the trendier places, which validates their troubles getting there and the experience they had.  In turn, it's easier for that person to critique Skyway because there won't be so much blowback from the masses.  This applies the same way in rankings and even exclusivity of access. 


Part of this is the individual.  Someone above essentially claims that you shouldn't be able to offer critiques of courses unless you know what you're talking about.  I know a lot of people who, even if they do have criticisms of a course or outright don't like a course, will not communicate it at all because they fear they might be missing something, or "don't get it."  Conversely, it's much easier to criticize what's trendy to criticize because there's safety in numbers.  You're much more likely to hear how Rees Jones is terrible than you are Gil Hanse.  My position is trends and social media have a lot more to do with that than we'd like to admit.  So in terms of if there's any serious criticism of course architecture, most of I see is what I'd call "safe takes."  Rees Jones is a butcher, Tom Fazio is generic with no substance, anything decrying trees or rolling back the ball, etc.  There are exceptions, of course, Tom Doak on this site will offer some interesting input from time to time and I really think Derek Duncan's podcast asks a lot of interesting questions about the state of GCA that should be discussed a lot more.  I've always tried to offer criticism in my reviews instead of avoiding it, for what it's worth.  But in addition to magazines avoiding critical pieces, you don't hear a lot of designers getting critical of each other, other projects, or their past projects.  I'm sure there's a lot of politics there and it's certainly a business but there' s a lot of protecting the field.  So what are you left with?  The guys who do know what they're talking about won't get critical of their colleagues, most major media won't go there, all because of the risk built into going against the grain.  [size=78%]  [/size]


In terms of cult/niche/trendy courses not mentioned yet, it's a long list.  Some of them deserve the accolades.  Some of them, because of a more wide spread proliferation of information, have been "discovered" by the general public.  I'd put Seth Raynor in general in this category. Some other courses off the top of my head that fall along these lines not mentioned yet I'd put Aiken Golf Club, Goat Hill, Santa Anita, Triggs Memorial and Wilmington Municipal.  I'm not addressing the merits of any of these but these and it's a small sample size.  Why are they niche or cult depends on the place.  Some time it's that sense of discovery and journey.  Perhaps, like me at SC, it's that unexpected surprise factor.  Or maybe it's simpler than that; they're courses offering really good golf that don't receive the attention many think they should.


As for rankings, they're important for certain reasons.  They are not important with respect to whether I should like the course or that the higher ranked course is "better" than those below it, but they foster discussion and attempt to put some, well, structure I suppose into the whole thing.  As someone above mentioned, rankings are all over this site and elsewhere.  Functionally, they've helped me figure out some courses to check out in an unfamiliar area.  I suppose those who know enough to ignore them can consider them trash but there's an entire group out there that have to start some where and it's helpful as a general guide in that respect. 


I wished it would be possible to play courses like a blind bourbon tasting.  The most revered or popular bourbon rarely wins out and the taster is left judging each sample on its substance alone.  Like anything else, there's a lot of other factors that typically influence one's assessment of a course, whether it's a podcast, social media, rankings, cults or even what they've seen on television. 






Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2021, 02:09:22 PM »
Not even the most ardent of Popists would contend that Ariana Grande’s music carries the same artistic importance and gravitas as Bob Dylan’s. There a corollary there to golf architecture. Modern pop music doesn’t interest me due to its inherent disposability in contrast to its fore-bearers.

The disinterest I feel in golf architecture at this moment in my life can be explained away by variables related to work, fatherhood, and other hobbies. But that would be a lazy take. Golf architecture itself is also at fault. The disposability of golf media and more specifically, golf architecture media, makes it much harder to stay engaged. The point in my life where I was engaged required effort that exceeded the hobby/interest’s importance. And what’s more, you for sure couldn’t be negative about a course if you wanted to further your knowledge and get deeper into the hobby. How would you secure invites? Would an architect want to talk to you if you said their work wasn’t pristine?

Sitting at home and listening to Blonde on Blonde and thinking that Dylan was the man is much easier than getting on Cypress Point and deciding that MacKenzie was the man. Conversely, listening to Cardi B and opining publicly that her music isn’t very good won’t keep you from hearing her music ever again. In a world of Popists, it’s hard to be a Rockist.

That’s why cult courses exist. It’s no different than why a 15 second Instagram story that pumps a brand or lifestyle item has the potential to pay more than a painfully edited two thousand word review. The market and society dictate positivity in lieu of criticality.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 02:11:03 PM by Ben Sims »

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2021, 02:16:30 PM »
Not even the most ardent of Popists would contend that Ariana Grande’s music carries the same artistic importance and gravitas as Bob Dylan’s. There a corollary there to golf architecture. Modern pop music doesn’t interest me due to its inherent disposability in contrast to its fore-bearers.

The disinterest I feel in golf architecture at this moment in my life can be explained away by variables related to work, fatherhood, and other hobbies. But that would be a lazy take. Golf architecture itself is also at fault. The disposability of golf media and more specifically, golf architecture media, makes it much harder to stay engaged. The point in my life where I was engaged required effort that exceeded the hobby/interest’s importance. And what’s more, you for sure couldn’t be negative about a course if you wanted to further your knowledge and get deeper into the hobby. How would you secure invites? Would an architect want to talk to you if you said their work wasn’t pristine?

Sitting at home and listening to Blonde on Blonde and thinking that Dylan was the man is much easier than getting on Cypress Point and deciding that MacKenzie was the man. Conversely, listening to Cardi B and opining publicly that her music isn’t very good won’t keep you from hearing her music ever again. In a world of Popists, it’s hard to be a Rockist.

That’s why cult courses exist. It’s no different than why a 15 second Instagram story that pumps a brand or lifestyle item has the potential to pay more than a painfully edited two thousand word review. The market and society dictate positivity in lieu of criticality.


Pop music is pop music. Dylan's music was never pop music, even though it crossed over a bit here and there.


There is plenty of weighty, yet accessible music being made to day. You just have to find it.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2021, 02:21:58 PM »
As mentioned above, this is an interesting thread.


A couple of months ago I started a thread on Mid Pines not being *considered* the best course in the Sand Hills and the main response I seemed to get back is "because its not." After that the thread devolved into a "I have 10 plays in Pinehurst, which courses should I play?"


It's also interesting that Tobacco Road is mentioned. I played there on the same trip after having not been there for many years and loved it. After I played I posted on Twitter on 1/3/21: Tobacco Road manages to succeed in all the ways other modern big name courses, such as Mammoth Dunes, have fallen short. TR provides visual intimidation paired with supreme strategy and, in the end, forgiveness and FUN. Why isn't TR in the Top 100 US?!" I received a fair amount of interesting comments to that post, and I planned to post a thread here, but after Mid Pines I just didn't feel like it would really drive an interesting discussion.


Why? Well you could compare TR to the new #4. I don't think its even close which the better golf course is but few here would openly post something negative about a Gil Hanse / Caveman course. #4 is a fine course, with some cool holes built on a not-as-good-as-you'd-think site, but is it a Top 100 golf course in the US? I don't think so. It throws every modern minimalist trick at you...wide fairways, scraggly bunkers, internal putting contours, etc. etc. but it all felt so contrived when a place like Tobacco Road feels so much more authentic and interesting.


So, yes, I agree with the general premise of the original post. There is a lot of group think out there, both with the NLU/Sweetens/Zac Blair crowd as well as here. Not sure what's driving that, but it's there.


I think it would be interesting to pull this thread back up in a few years when The Tree Farm is considered a cult course?  :)


Pat:


You touched a lot of hot buttons there in one post!  Good for you.


One difference between Tobacco Road and Mammoth Dunes is who owns them.  That's also a difference between TR and Pinehurst #4.  One of them is a huge advertiser in many golf publications, the other is not.


I would love to get into a discussion of Pinehurst #4, which I walked on my recent trip also, but Tim Martin would throw a fit, so I suggest you start that as a separate topic.  As Mike Young says, it's difficult anymore to find honest criticism because designers' names and reputations are so strongly set in advance.  The Tree Farm is a perfect example:  Zac Blair has never built anything yet, and already there are a million guys who have made up their minds about his work.


I have posted on more than one occasion that PH4 is at best a nice resort course, and I explained why: over bunkered, several awkward and/or uninspired holes, a weakish finish, etc. But I also ticked Doak off when I posted that Pasatiempo is a better course than Pac Dunes. Perhaps Adam is correct in ducking my question: if you are in the business, you have to watch on which side your toast is buttered. Except Mike Young.


Ira

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2021, 02:33:38 PM »


Pop music is pop music. Dylan's music was never pop music, even though it crossed over a bit here and there.


There is plenty of weighty, yet accessible music being made to day. You just have to find it.

I’m not comparing the categorical merits of their music directly. I’m comparing the criticisms of their music. When a few music critics decided in the early 80’s that Pop music deserved the same skeptical eye towards authenticity as rock historically had up to that point, they began a revolution in music criticism. But, to me, what it really did was normalize Pop music’s artfulness compared to rock. That’s just not right in my opinion.

Modern golf architecture criticism has accomplished much the same in my mind.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2021, 02:38:08 PM »


Pop music is pop music. Dylan's music was never pop music, even though it crossed over a bit here and there.


There is plenty of weighty, yet accessible music being made to day. You just have to find it.

I’m not comparing the categorical merits of their music directly. I’m comparing the criticisms of their music. When a few music critics decided in the early 80’s that Pop music deserved the same skeptical eye towards authenticity as rock historically had up to that point, they began a revolution in music criticism. But, to me, what it really did was normalize Pop music’s artfulness compared to rock. That’s just not right in my opinion.

Modern golf architecture criticism has accomplished much the same in my mind.


Ahhh. Makes sense now. Carry on. ;-)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2021, 03:42:09 PM »
Years ago Ron Whitten had a column entitled "Architorture." It was as close to serious criticism as a magazine gets.
As for this site, I do try to begin threads about some aspect of architecture.


It may have been truthful, but it was anything but serious, at least his "live version" which I guess not many have seen.  Line up all those he featured one at a time in GD, and it was hilarious, presented in Jeff Foxworthy "You might be a Redneck" style.  I still laugh when I think about it.


Besides, it considered gca feelings. At least, I think a gca would feel a little less embarrassed/angry at having one hole called Architorture, than having an entire course rated a "0".  Or one feature, like a Green Monkey in a sand bunker, or a giant's footprint sand bunker..... :o
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2021, 03:46:53 PM »
Some other courses off the top of my head that fall along these lines not mentioned yet I'd put Aiken Golf Club, Goat Hill, Santa Anita, Triggs Memorial and Wilmington Municipal.   


That's funny because I went to see Aiken Golf Club on this trip, too, and I had planned on going to Wilmington Municipal originally, but shortened the trip due to the cold snap.


Perhaps it is easier to become a cult course if I haven't posted a review of it and it's free game!

Peter Pallotta

Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2021, 03:50:37 PM »
I keep reading this thread, and thinking about the posts. Sean's post brought this to mind:

That the only reason to attempt 'serious criticism' about gca is because you believe what you're saying is *true*.

If you don't believe in 'truth' or that anything 'true' can be said about golf course architecture, why bother?

Without that goal in mind, you're either marketing yourself, acting as a shill for others, or trying to get a tee time.



Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2021, 03:54:29 PM »
Peter,


In this day and age, even in real world news, it seems like there are no facts, no truth, just opinions.  News morphed from infotainment to opiniotainment. Can there really be truth in golf course criticism, or it is just one outlet or person trying to force his opinion down throats by being louder or more outrageous than the last?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2021, 04:01:06 PM »
Peter,

In this day and age, even in real world news, it seems like there are no facts, no truth, just opinions.  News morphed from infotainment to opiniotainment. Can there really be truth in golf course criticism, or it is just one outlet or person trying to force his opinion down throats by being louder or more outrageous than the last?


Jeff -- but if I believed that, why would I listen and try to learn from anyone? And if you believed that, what would it say about all your years of study and apprenticeship and hard work and dedication to mastering your craft? An archer can only be great/successful if there's an actual *target* he is trying to hit. The very process (and theory behind) serious criticism presupposes that there is a goal-ideal we're trying to reach.