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Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #175 on: March 19, 2021, 02:57:55 AM »


I think Rustic Canyon has dropped in the ratings as it became more and more popular. It was once ranked in the Top 100 Modern but it now rated no. 151. I think it is great and yet GCA has been critical of it. There was a thread about how the seventh hole is not what it once was. I am not a big fan of no. 15 either. I see it as connector hole, but a par 3.  So we do need to be critical of our favorite courses in order to see that no course is perfect.



Scott:


I like Rustic Canyon, and this point is not about Rustic Canyon specifically.  But, as I posted somewhere earlier -- I think about Cruden Bay -- because the only real discussion of golf courses in the magazines is via rankings, when there is a course that a dedicated following believes to be important, they will just lobby and push and bend arms and do anything they can to get that course into a ranking, to prove its worth and vindicate their strong opinion of it.  And once that happens, and they're satisfied, it will often disappear.  I can think of lots of courses that fit this pattern.  Remember Lehigh??  :D


That's why there are more than 350 courses in Paul Rudovsky's "top 100 ever" list.

Tom--

Just read thru this thread and totally agree with your comment above.  Lots of posts on GCA opine about what it takes to be a good rater or have valid opinions.  Truth is that with 38,000 golf courses around the world, courses playing very differently in different weather conditions (not to mention course conditions), rounds taking 3-4 hours, a limited # of years/days/hours in one's life to play this silly game and see many courses (or few courses many times)...no one can do it all.  Just not enough time to do it...except in one's day dreams.  And maybe the impossibility of it all is part of the fascination with it.

So in that sense...the rating "system(s)" do serve a purpose because no one person can come close to doing it all.  In terms of great courses played I may have had the greatest breadth...but by definition that means I have that shallowest depth.  By having 100 panelists (or 800 or 1500...one can argue forever about which number is right and there is no "right" answer) a "PANEL" can come close to creating width and depth.  Of course, that means you are using different biases and outlooks...but like most things in life, that has its +'s and -'s (most things are double edge swords).

So guilty as charged!  But those on this site who criticize ratings need to think about what system would be better and would have the wear-with-all to stay around for decades (and one thing I am sure about regarding ratings, is that the quality of them have improved dramatically over these decades...and that the original "pioneers" including you had a near impossible task...finding one's way in fresh snow is very very hard since there are no footprints to follow).  But please do continue to criticize...that helps the "system" improve.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #176 on: March 19, 2021, 04:00:58 AM »
Paul,


There is no rating panel / system that works. None of them - and I mean none - tell you as much as you would learn from one individual who is well travelled, knowledgeable and who you know well enough to know their biases and what you can trust.


That is why The Confidential Guide works (a lot of people know Tom’s preferences).


That is why Kevin Markham’s “Hooked” is the bible for many people in Ireland. Kevin posts on here occasionally and would admit himself that he does not have an intimate knowledge of “design”. But he knows and loves his golf courses, is clear about what and why he loves certain courses and this allows a vast swathe of the population to follow his recommendations. It is the go-to book for a huge number.... I keep on threatening Kevin that I will write a book called “Sliced” to give a few different views in the same format. Might kill my career though!

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #177 on: March 19, 2021, 05:04:56 AM »

There is no rating panel / system that works. None of them - and I mean none - tell you as much as you would learn from one individual who is well travelled, knowledgeable and who you know well enough to know their biases and what you can trust.

Ally,
Isn't it an opinion that a well traveled group of golfers opinions, isn't as good as your own preference?  In today's day and age of big data, why discount the large amount of ratings of a critical mass of people against a certain criteria? You may not agree, and others on this board would agree with you as well (maybe myself included), however preferences/opinions are gathered today and sold as information to dial in what consumers want. As biased as we may critique the population opinion (cumulative rating panels) vs. the GCA sample population their viewpoint still exists.

"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #178 on: March 19, 2021, 05:21:36 AM »
Paul,


There is no rating panel / system that works. None of them - and I mean none - tell you as much as you would learn from one individual who is well travelled, knowledgeable and who you know well enough to know their biases and what you can trust.


That is why The Confidential Guide works (a lot of people know Tom’s preferences).


That is why Kevin Markham’s “Hooked” is the bible for many people in Ireland. Kevin posts on here occasionally and would admit himself that he does not have an intimate knowledge of “design”. But he knows and loves his golf courses, is clear about what and why he loves certain courses and this allows a vast swathe of the population to follow his recommendations. It is the go-to book for a huge number.... I keep on threatening Kevin that I will write a book called “Sliced” to give a few different views in the same format. Might kill my career though!

I tend to agree with you Ally. I rarely use any magazine/online panel to inform me. I use guys whose opinion I trust (and some are probably panelists), but one isn't enough. As Paul noted, no one person is best placed for most areas.

I have never really bought into large panels because the larger the group the harder it is to maintain quality control. What probably needs to happen is for panels to be rebuilt/restructured and the the lists of considered courses to be rethought.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #179 on: March 19, 2021, 07:34:52 AM »
I find Top100 Courses useful not so much for the order of rankings but because the reviewers are identified by name and write at least a paragraph or two about the course. Many of them are well traveled at least in a region so one can get a sense of their preferences to compare to my own. The actual rankings process is too opaque which is too bad because the lead(s) for countries/regions include some posters here.


Ira

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #180 on: March 19, 2021, 09:48:59 AM »

There is no rating panel / system that works. None of them - and I mean none - tell you as much as you would learn from one individual who is well travelled, knowledgeable and who you know well enough to know their biases and what you can trust.

Ally,
Isn't it an opinion that a well traveled group of golfers opinions, isn't as good as your own preference?  In today's day and age of big data, why discount the large amount of ratings of a critical mass of people against a certain criteria? You may not agree, and others on this board would agree with you as well (maybe myself included), however preferences/opinions are gathered today and sold as information to dial in what consumers want. As biased as we may critique the population opinion (cumulative rating panels) vs. the GCA sample population their viewpoint still exists.


Jeff:


What's the phrase about lies, damn lies, and statistics?  Big data in the world of subjective ratings is just a bigger pile of garbage.  And, don't discount the levers available for gaming the system.


Many of the public do not really know what they want, so their opinions are based on (a) what they think they should say, and (b) whether they enjoyed themselves, which is unfortunately strongly linked to the randomness of how they played that day.  This is even true of some raters on the bigger rankings panels.  And anything overseen by a corporation has another level of filtering in play.  [Have you ever seen a negative word about one of Tiger Woods' designs? --> Is that because they're perfect, or because nobody wants to cross Tiger Woods?]


No single person's opinion is always "right", but an informed person can tell you what you need to know.  For example, I might not ever want to play course X again, but I would tell you if I thought you would enjoy it while you were around Aberdeen, as opposed to your other alternatives.  [Note that this is the primary use of the "0" rating in The Confidential Guide . . . those are the only courses I would never recommend to anyone.]

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #181 on: March 19, 2021, 10:01:49 AM »

There is no rating panel / system that works. None of them - and I mean none - tell you as much as you would learn from one individual who is well travelled, knowledgeable and who you know well enough to know their biases and what you can trust.

Ally,
Isn't it an opinion that a well traveled group of golfers opinions, isn't as good as your own preference?  In today's day and age of big data, why discount the large amount of ratings of a critical mass of people against a certain criteria? You may not agree, and others on this board would agree with you as well (maybe myself included), however preferences/opinions are gathered today and sold as information to dial in what consumers want. As biased as we may critique the population opinion (cumulative rating panels) vs. the GCA sample population their viewpoint still exists.


Jeff:


What's the phrase about lies, damn lies, and statistics?  Big data in the world of subjective ratings is just a bigger pile of garbage.  And, don't discount the levers available for gaming the system.


Many of the public do not really know what they want, so their opinions are based on (a) what they think they should say, and (b) whether they enjoyed themselves, which is unfortunately strongly linked to the randomness of how they played that day.  This is even true of some raters on the bigger rankings panels.  And anything overseen by a corporation has another level of filtering in play.  [Have you ever seen a negative word about one of Tiger Woods' designs? --> Is that because they're perfect, or because nobody wants to cross Tiger Woods?]


No single person's opinion is always "right", but an informed person can tell you what you need to know.  For example, I might not ever want to play course X again, but I would tell you if I thought you would enjoy it while you were around Aberdeen, as opposed to your other alternatives.  [Note that this is the primary use of the "0" rating in The Confidential Guide . . . those are the only courses I would never recommend to anyone.]
Perfect? No. Useful? IMHO I think they are, but not infallible. I don't take the half empty view of the data from raters, I don't believe I'm alone in saying that as we have quite a few on this very DG. To know their bias is to better understand their ratings, some have an agency problem, some just want access, some will never be honest because they don't want to be an outlier. However, some (or many depending on how you survey this landscape) give a well traveled informed opinion on places I have never been. That critical mass of data on a set criteria, albeit subjectively ranked, has value. To hold it to measuring stick that is either 100% gospel or void of value I think is negating utility for golfers.

My opinion today is more well developed than it was 2, 5, 10 years ago via experience and knowledge gained. I think the rating panels, like the golf mag panel, has improved and hopefully will continue to do so with well traveled opinions.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #182 on: March 19, 2021, 10:13:21 AM »
To hold it to measuring stick that is either 100% gospel or void of value I think is negating utility for golfers.

My opinion today is more well developed than it was 2, 5, 10 years ago via experience and knowledge gained.


Fair enough, but for God's sake, let's not turn this into a rankings thread.  There are plenty of those.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #183 on: March 19, 2021, 11:17:12 AM »
I tried asking this question earlier, but it may have got lost in the other convos.

I look at a list like this, and I don't see what is offensive about it or way off-base. Yes of course not everyone will agree with every last course on the list, but I don't see anything that would rise to the level of having disdain for it..  https://golf.com/travel/courses/golf-top-100-golf-courses-us-2020-2021/

What am I missing?

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #184 on: March 19, 2021, 11:44:15 AM »
 8)  Nothing offensive in any way, shape or form.  Nice narrative promotional prose and beautiful pictures, and a forced ranking splitting hairs for national discussion. 


Perhaps an article on architectural wastelands is in order... :o  could that would be serious criticism or just piling on?


after all, golf is a game for most... https://www.golfchannel.com/article/travel-insider/golf-courses-square-mile




Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #185 on: March 19, 2021, 01:56:05 PM »
Perhaps an article on architectural wastelands is in order... :o  could that would be serious criticism or just piling on?


after all, golf is a game for most... https://www.golfchannel.com/article/travel-insider/golf-courses-square-mile


There are 23 golf courses in Alaska?  I thought there were less than ten.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #186 on: March 19, 2021, 02:25:56 PM »
Rankings are a dilution of lots of opinions that cancel each other out to the point that no-one can read the “character” or driver behind anyone’s considered argument. And that’s before we get to the other influencing factors.


If I read Sean Arble’s Top-100 GB&I, it will tell me something. If I read Golf World’s Top-100 GB&I, it doesn’t.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #187 on: March 19, 2021, 02:37:10 PM »
Adam L has highlighted the idea of ‘the canon’ within literature. The idea seems to have merit within golf too.
Atb

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #188 on: March 19, 2021, 04:17:09 PM »
Perhaps an article on architectural wastelands is in order... :o  could that would be serious criticism or just piling on?


after all, golf is a game for most... https://www.golfchannel.com/article/travel-insider/golf-courses-square-mile


There are 23 golf courses in Alaska?  I thought there were less than ten.


That was an old link, I see 22 now; have only played 1, Anchorage Golf Course back in 1998, we tee'd it up at like 9:30 PM, they were limiting times to 10:30 due to bears roaming around, feeding.  Gives "bear trap" a new perspective...
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #189 on: March 19, 2021, 09:23:05 PM »

What am I missing?
Owners of the lists.... :)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #190 on: March 20, 2021, 12:46:48 PM »
Interesting article in this morning's WSJ that touches on the subject: "Deconstruction, Identity and the Dying Art of Criticism".  Two particularly applicable quotes resonated with me- Toni Morrison's "If there were better criticism, there would be better books.", and T.S. Eliot's on the function of the critic as "the common pursuit of true judgement and correction of taste".


On the subject of "canon" in gca, it became fairly obvious to me well over a decade ago that there were several common areas of taste expressed often on this site.  Using MacKenzie's list of design principle's as a model, I attempted to come up with the site's dominant preferences/tastes and posted them for consideration.


Of course, opinions on golf architecture are just that- e.g. someone's preference for a tight routing is another's aversion on the grounds of safety, site compromises, clutter, less than peaceful environment, etc. I wasn't thinking of "canon" as used in literature or religion, but was trying to arrive at a set of characteristics that seemed to have wide support on this site.


The response was not encouraging.  One, from a then good friend who no longer posts, was representative though particularly negative, arguing that the subject matter was far too wide and varied to be pigeon-holed.  Though he was an iconoclast like many here when it came to gca and likely thought highly of MacKenzie, he and others resisted to be tied down to a set of principles or standards in evaluating golf courses.


In my years of analyzing performance, having clear standards/expectations was extremely important.  As the Desert Forest thread indicates, two knowledgeable people can look at a piece of work and one sees it as "vandalism" while another as a finest example of its kind.  Criticism furthers knowledge if we can get passed our own implicit biases and engage it for reasons other than to show how clever we are.  It is also helpful to be able to gauge the opiner's familiarity with his subject matter.       

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #191 on: March 20, 2021, 01:16:33 PM »

What am I missing?
Owners of the lists.... :)


Mike,

Fair enough, but this is about critiquing the actual message, aka the courses that actually exist on the list.... not just shooting the messenger.

I've asked this question a few times now, and I'm curious why no one has taken on actually attempting to critique which course(s) absolutely do not belong and why. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #192 on: March 20, 2021, 03:04:49 PM »

I've asked this question a few times now, and I'm curious why no one has taken on actually attempting to critique which course(s) absolutely do not belong and why. 




I wouldn't know where to start, because I am honestly not sure what is the purpose of ranking the top 100 courses.


If you were trying to throw a wide net around all of the most original and inspiring pieces of work, there would be room for a course like Tobacco Road or Sweetens Cove, and there would be no need for so many Raynor clones.


So, clearly based on the results, that is not what's being attempted.  The ratings committees have expressed a preference for a toned-down version of Mike Strantz with ocean views [MPCC], and they make room for lots of pre-approved templates.


If you tell me what the purpose is, I will tell you which courses do not belong.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #193 on: March 20, 2021, 04:22:30 PM »

I've asked this question a few times now, and I'm curious why no one has taken on actually attempting to critique which course(s) absolutely do not belong and why. 




I wouldn't know where to start, because I am honestly not sure what is the purpose of ranking the top 100 courses.


If you were trying to throw a wide net around all of the most original and inspiring pieces of work, there would be room for a course like Tobacco Road or Sweetens Cove, and there would be no need for so many Raynor clones.


So, clearly based on the results, that is not what's being attempted.  The ratings committees have expressed a preference for a toned-down version of Mike Strantz with ocean views [MPCC], and they make room for lots of pre-approved templates.


If you tell me what the purpose is, I will tell you which courses do not belong.


See Post 182. It seems to be inevitable that we indulge in rankings discussions.


Ira

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #194 on: March 21, 2021, 12:04:03 PM »
I wonder what serious criticism actually is? When I say I like this course because of X, Y and Z, is that serious criticism? If yes, then there is a lot of it. If no, then what is missing?


Do I need to work for a Magazine? Or should I rather be free of professional interests?


Or does the seriousness of my criticism hinge on the nature of X,Y and Z? If yes, then who gets to define X,Y and Z as valid?
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #195 on: March 21, 2021, 04:38:53 PM »
Ulrich:


Good question.  I don't honestly know what serious criticism is and I don't need to be the guy who defines it.


However, I can say, as a designer I tend to listen more closely when the criticism is not a gripe about something that upended the critic or his buddy.  Those sorts of criticisms are TOO serious.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #196 on: March 21, 2021, 04:57:16 PM »
Good serious criticism is earnest, balanced and interesting to read.  It is generally devoid of malice.  Most criticism can be framed in terms of positive observations.  The cruel world paradigm of art criticism is dead.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 08:35:48 PM by John Kirk »

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #197 on: March 21, 2021, 07:55:28 PM »
It's tough to frame a negative experience in terms of positive observations and still make it clear to an astute reader that it was a bad experience. It's impossible to get it done for casual and/or uneducated readers, as they would typically not have enough experience to read between the lines.
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #198 on: March 21, 2021, 09:36:43 PM »
As an added point of nuance. When it comes to serious discussion, I often appreciate more the details from sources who either worked on it, or were close by, especially in a before and after type of capacity.

But Ulrich certainly frames the toughest issue, is there any such thing as an objective party in criticsm? Whether its Magazines, Raters, Owners, Designers, great golfers, or just casual players there always seems to be a laundry list of reasons why their motives or background can't be trusted or reliable.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cult Courses, Architectural Wastelands, and Serious Criticism
« Reply #199 on: March 21, 2021, 09:52:39 PM »
Hi Ulrich,


I admit my comment was more of a soundbite, an idea not fully considered.

For example, we can choose to praise courses with good drainage, or generally discuss the importance of good drainage, rather than criticize individual courses for poor drainage, to as great an extent as possible. 

But sometimes it makes sense to identify shortcomings based on one's experiences.  It seems to be getting harder to do without receiving some form of a defensive response.

With respect to Kalen's recent post, I can't see where having an agenda does me any good.  It is in my best interest to be as objective as possible, while being humble about my lack of expertise.  I'm here to learn.  Not everything in life is some game to be won.