Desert Forest GC ('62, Red Lawrence) in Carefree, AZ ... Drone View

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Take a look:


https://www.fox10phoenix.com/video/852330




https://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/desert-forest-golf-club/

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Key word: was
The course was vandalized by an an incompetent fool who failed to study how the greens worked to bound balls into different areas.  The brilliance was way tiers worked to be able to pitch into a tier and work the ball to a hole behind a bunker.  Many old highly skilled seniors would shoot only a couple strokes over par while hitting on greens in regulation.  After the work, this was not possible.  I used to visit a couple students several times each winter. One left club with many others due to the failed work.  Pre-work, they had agronomic issues, and that was the excuse for a  green rebuild .  Hopefully, in a few years the club will be economically healthy enough to fix the vandalism!

[Tom_Doak]

I peeked at this thread to see if that controversy over the redesign had died down.  I will tiptoe away now.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
LOL.  I did the same thing.  Only comment I will make about DF is,..., I won't even make one.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Well, I had only one visit and that was pre-renovation. I loved the place and could easily spend time there every year.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here are some previous threads post Zinkand's work:


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57429.msg1340723.html#msg1340723


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64877.msg1550832.html#msg1550832


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57697.msg1349120.html#msg1349120


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57697.msg1349120.html#msg1349120


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59440.msg1399302.html#msg1399302

[Jeff Schley]

Only played after the renovation and was impressed for a desert course, I personally liked the bunkering and thought the superintendent put a lot of time into making those bunkers play consistent (I was in enough lord knows).

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here was my review posted on September 19, 2017 after the renovation:


Thanks again to Dave ( August)  and the members of Desert Forest for the opportunity to play one of the best, if not the best, desert course . Having played there before the Zinkand renovation, this was my first visit to the "new" course. I think Ran's review needs an update given the work that has been done- bunkers, greens and a general clean up, etc. I was impressed even though the course may have been made more difficult according to some reviews. The greens were " slow" at about 10 instead of the usual 11 or 12. I'll take the 10. 

emphasis added!

[John Kavanaugh]

Funny thing. I played Desert Forest today and loved it. It’s the first time in a while I felt uncomfortable on the verge of confusion while over an approach from the fairway. To me that’s a very good thing.

[Tom_Doak]

Funny thing. I played Desert Forest today and loved it. It’s the first time in a while I felt uncomfortable on the verge of confusion while over an approach from the fairway. To me that’s a very good thing.

Agreed.  But it is harder to get members to accept that, especially if they were comfortable with the hole having been a different way.  That's why redesigning a course is so fraught.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Isn’t this also why there is merit in talking to someone who is passionate and knowledgeable about the history and evolution of designs.  DF was basically a Flynn (Lawrence studied under him as you know) in the desert.  You could see so many aspects of Flynn’s style and design tendencies in that course. I loved it.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
Isn’t this also why there is merit in talking to someone who is passionate and knowledgeable about the history and evolution of designs.  DF was basically a Flynn (Lawrence studied under him as you know) in the desert.  You could see so many aspects of Flynn’s style and design tendencies in that course. I loved it.

No, because of exactly what you did there.


Try this out:  Pacific Dunes is basically a Dye (Tom studied under Pete Dye as you know) in sand dunes.


Now, I learned a lot from Mr. Dye, but if some restoration expert came along in fifty years and tried to fix my courses by installing more of Pete's style and design tendencies, I would find a way to communicate from the afterlife.  Perhaps a tsunami.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Funny thing. I played Desert Forest today and loved it. It’s the first time in a while I felt uncomfortable on the verge of confusion while over an approach from the fairway. To me that’s a very good thing.

Agreed.  But it is harder to get members to accept that, especially if they were comfortable with the hole having been a different way.  That's why redesigning a course is so fraught.

Wow. I never thought of that. But you are right. When Symers came back and made just a couple of changes at Four Streams it took a couple of years before we agreed that the changes were good.

[Andrew Harvie]

Is the redo really that bad? I only played it once post reno and enjoyed it, but I have nothing to measure it against how it was. Granted, I played with three of my college teammates and we enjoyed the challenge. Wasn't fully engulfed in architecture at that time!

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
The point I was making is that DF (pre-renovation) had many similar design aspects of what Flynn did.  You could see in DF that Lawrence trained under Flynn.  Would you not agree or did you not study it close enough?  It was in my opinion different from many of the other desert courses in that regard and I liked that.  Not all architects stray maybe as far as you did when they leave the nest     

So much for me not commenting on this thread.  I will leave it at that for now. 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

My post renovation criticism, which is harsh, came about after multiple plays.  My original criticism in an early thread only roasted a few greens.  However, I was  often playing with my tour member student and two old gentleman lacking length but possessing solid  golfing skill, and no matter where the older gentlemen layed up, they had no way gaining an optimum pitching opportunity.  This where the Flynn tie in was lost.  The more Flynn's I play,  it is fun experiencing the how brilliantly the greens are tied into achieving a good angle of attack in order to knock a shot close.  Today DF is aesthetically better, but strategically compromised.  And how a course plays should trump how a course looks!

[John Kavanaugh]

My post renovation criticism, which is harsh, came about after multiple plays.  My original criticism in an early thread only roasted a few greens.  However, I was  often playing with my tour member student and two old gentleman lacking length but possessing solid  golfing skill, and no matter where the older gentlemen layed up, they had no way gaining an optimum pitching opportunity. 

As an older gentleman lacking length but posing solid golfing skills I loved the course for your exact reasoning. After the second hole the course told me in a not so subtle manner to reach back to my youth and play better.

[Buck Wolter]

I had the opportunity to play DF recently as well (for the first time). I was massively impressed and loved it though it was very difficult. I'm not as good of a player as JK or my host but for the most found it playable even after a 5 month Minnesota winter layoff.

The fairways were relatively narrow and the desert unforgiving -- my host said in many places you have to 'read the fairway'. Agree with JK's comments on being uncomfortable playing into the greens -- my target all day was middle of the green and would probably be the same even if I was playing my best. The greens were diabolical once you were on them but not over the top (for whatever reason we had many extreme pin positions so it was definitely defensive putting). To me it felt more like a modern course than one that has been there for something like 50 years but still great. On the non-golf side it was perfect, golf only, nice but understated facilities.

I would put it above We-Ko-Pa as my favorite desert course.