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Thomas Dai

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Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2021, 06:19:53 PM »
Are we writing here about general social golf, ie, playing for fun or bravado or a few $€£ with some mates in which case the tees the 4-ball etc play from is generally of likely less relevance, pace of play excepted, or are we writing about formal competitive golf with prizes at stake where every competitor is required to play from the same markers?
Apples and oranges I suggest.
And for the latter the positioning of the tees and tee markers on them can have significant effects and needs to be carefully considered taking into consideration many factors including speed of play, player ability, wind and weather, ground conditions, forced carries etc etc.
And then we come onto the related subject for amateurs of the new world handicapping system but it’s probably best not go there just now.
Atb

mike_malone

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Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2021, 06:51:25 PM »
My concern is for the look. Too many tees seems ugly to me.
AKA Mayday

Jim_Coleman

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Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2021, 09:22:51 PM »
Mike:  How long would the three sets of tees measure at your course?  Now there are 5- 6950, 6700, 6350, 5800, 5550. 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 09:33:13 PM by Jim_Coleman »

mike_malone

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Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2021, 09:47:31 PM »
How many yards per hole is that between each tee one to the next? Not many I guess.


I think it’s only four tees. 6, 8,9, 14 where four teeing areas exist.


 I’m wondering whether the back tee on 6 is necessary.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 10:01:45 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Jim_Coleman

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Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2021, 10:51:43 PM »
  So, it’s multiple teeing areas that you find ugly.  Long teeing areas with multiple tees on them are ok, a la RTJ Jr.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2021, 11:03:39 PM »
  So, it’s multiple teeing areas that you find ugly.  Long teeing areas with multiple tees on them are ok, a la RTJ Jr.




I don’t have an opinion there. What’s yours?
AKA Mayday

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2021, 07:56:12 AM »
Mike,
Just to put in perspective, your 5500 yard course like many others would be like many of us playing at 8000 yards. How much fun would that be.  It is way to long. 
Mark

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2021, 08:18:43 AM »
We need four things


1) More tees not fewer due to the vast difference in driving distances today
2) Tees that blend much more into the landscape and are built at near ground level, not squared off.
3) Too many tees are built way too large based on equity rather than volume of use and expected wear and tear
4) A cart path does not need to be next to each tee, let the few people that use these tees pull right up on the grass or for the back tees walk a bit.


I am a big fan of the changes to the tees at Aronimink that followed this model.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2021, 08:37:50 AM »
I’ll go back to what I said on reply 16:


If you have (or want) a 7,000 yard course, then have three teeing areas: One at 7,000 yards, one at 6,000 yards and one at 5,000 yards. If you must have more options, you use a combination of the 6 & 7 to get you 6,500 and a combination of the 5 & 6 to get you 5,500.


Job done without scattering multiple teeing areas everywhere.


Above open to project specific tweaks. Obviously.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2021, 09:19:02 AM »
I’ll go back to what I said on reply 16:


If you have (or want) a 7,000 yard course, then have three teeing areas: One at 7,000 yards, one at 6,000 yards and one at 5,000 yards. If you must have more options, you use a combination of the 6 & 7 to get you 6,500 and a combination of the 5 & 6 to get you 5,500.


Job done without scattering multiple teeing areas everywhere.


Above open to project specific tweaks. Obviously.


This-and to take it a step further, several holes could share tees i.e.(i.e. short 3's and short 4's with enough turf for wear.)and a few long holes MIGHT have 4 tees with a small hidden alternate back tee.(Palmetto)
In many cases it could come down to the landforms and how far/reasonable it is to a playable interesting area.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2021, 10:29:09 AM »
   The Philly Cricket scorecard has course ratings for seven combinations of tees ranging from 7100 to 5500.  I suppose a congested scorecard is way less offensive than congested tees, but I haven’t seen anything like it anywhere else.  It certainly gives everyone a choice.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2021, 10:59:04 AM »
Jim,
And 5500 is still way too long for most forward tee players.  Those who feel otherwise should at least go play the tips at their course to feel what it feels like.  In reality they should add 500 yards or more to those back tees to get proper perspective. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2021, 11:05:01 AM »
I’ll go back to what I said on reply 16:


If you have (or want) a 7,000 yard course, then have three teeing areas: One at 7,000 yards, one at 6,000 yards and one at 5,000 yards. If you must have more options, you use a combination of the 6 & 7 to get you 6,500 and a combination of the 5 & 6 to get you 5,500.


Job done without scattering multiple teeing areas everywhere.


Above open to project specific tweaks. Obviously.


Ally:


I like your approach but here is the problem:  there are a lot of golfers now [especially Americans] who think they need another tee for themselves so they can play the hole with the intended "shot values", i.e., hitting 6-iron to the green or whatever.


This is a byproduct of bad design from A to Z.  Links courses are built to be more accommodating for players who have a long club into the green, because sometimes the conditions will mean that even the best players have to hit that long approach.  But many American designers would build a green for a 6-iron, and then if you couldn't get that close, just shrug and tell you that you are playing the wrong tees.


I agree with Mike M. that littering the landscape with teeing grounds is a poor solution to the problem, but there are many golfers who just feel entitled to their own perfect tee, and there are always guys willing to build them.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2021, 11:17:27 AM »
I’ll go back to what I said on reply 16:


If you have (or want) a 7,000 yard course, then have three teeing areas: One at 7,000 yards, one at 6,000 yards and one at 5,000 yards. If you must have more options, you use a combination of the 6 & 7 to get you 6,500 and a combination of the 5 & 6 to get you 5,500.


Job done without scattering multiple teeing areas everywhere.


Above open to project specific tweaks. Obviously.


Ally:


I like your approach but here is the problem:  there are a lot of golfers now [especially Americans] who think they need another tee for themselves so they can play the hole with the intended "shot values", i.e., hitting 6-iron to the green or whatever.


This is a byproduct of bad design from A to Z.  Links courses are built to be more accommodating for players who have a long club into the green, because sometimes the conditions will mean that even the best players have to hit that long approach.  But many American designers would build a green for a 6-iron, and then if you couldn't get that close, just shrug and tell you that you are playing the wrong tees.


I agree with Mike M. that littering the landscape with teeing grounds is a poor solution to the problem, but there are many golfers who just feel entitled to their own perfect tee, and there are always guys willing to build them.


I'll side with Mark Fine, and say it is NOT! I prefer the customer always right to the gca (or gca snob!) is always right.  Why shouldn't they want a tee where they can reach greens in regulation, as God and Old Tom intended?  It's not their fault that Tour Pros bomb it an average of 294 while they are stuck at 225, 200, 170, or 140.  Why should any design cater to those 1% of golfers, when 99% of golfers on a particular course are in the tee shot distances above.  Your attitude towards golfers needing to play what you give them, vs you provide for them to a certain extend seems arrogant to me.


And, while I agree that back tee players can find the number of tees in view to be a bit ugly and maybe even distracting, I figure that is just what they give up to the rest of the golfing world, much like old white men need to accept, ignore, tolerate people of color or lower income in society.  It's not all about you, especially if you are in the 16% who can drive the ball over 260 yards.


Lastly, if we accept multiple tees as a given to allow all players to have fun at golf, at reasonable lengths, there are ways to improve the less important factor of visual clutter from the back tees.  Art Hills is famous for putting small mounds behind forward tees so they aren't visible from the back.  Fazio has, on occasion, used artful mounding and staggered tees to almost completely hide the middle tees.  Of course, I suppose many hear would find that objectionable, feeling minimalism as a design trait trumps actually designing something that solves a stated problem.  I understand the idea that tee design, once purely functional, needs to get more complicated as we seek design "perfection", sort of like the endless pursuit of perfect bunkers seems like it can never end. 


That said, I think designing a playable, fun course, is one level higher thinking than providing perfect bunkers for imperfect shots.


All just MHO< of course, and posted for discussion purposes.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2021, 12:16:53 PM »
I just looked at the designs for Rolling Green by Flynn. He has only two tees drawn but the back of the main tee to the front of the forward tee is drawn as approximately 60 yards except for some long holes where it is 70 yards.


 That seems like a pretty good start. If we add one that adds another 30 yards forward on average I see that as a fair solution.



AKA Mayday

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2021, 06:02:08 PM »
Mike,
If tees are done poorly they can look unsightly.  At the same time, if done well you will hardly notice them.  As I said before, if I had my way I wouldn't have "formal" tees (not many anyway) but the game has changed and we need to accommodate the wider range of golfing abilities.  If you don't want to build extra tees, at least put some flat markers out to get the course down to that 4500 yard mark.


One of the best things the ski industry did was accommodate wider ranges of abilities to make skiing/snowboarding,...fun for everyone.  Just think if the only lifts went all the way to the top and you had only double black diamonds to make your way down??   Think of the extra tees in golf similar to the extra lifts and/or stops on the way to the top of the mountain.  For some people, they are much happier only going a short way up  :D

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2021, 07:42:25 PM »

I'll side with Mark Fine, and say it is NOT! I prefer the customer always right to the gca (or gca snob!) is always right.  Why shouldn't they want a tee where they can reach greens in regulation, as God and Old Tom intended?  It's not their fault that Tour Pros bomb it an average of 294 while they are stuck at 225, 200, 170, or 140.  Why should any design cater to those 1% of golfers, when 99% of golfers on a particular course are in the tee shot distances above.  Your attitude towards golfers needing to play what you give them, vs you provide for them to a certain extend seems arrogant to me.

And, while I agree that back tee players can find the number of tees in view to be a bit ugly and maybe even distracting, I figure that is just what they give up to the rest of the golfing world, much like old white men need to accept, ignore, tolerate people of color or lower income in society.  It's not all about you, especially if you are in the 16% who can drive the ball over 260 yards.

Lastly, if we accept multiple tees as a given to allow all players to have fun at golf, at reasonable lengths, there are ways to improve the less important factor of visual clutter from the back tees.  Art Hills is famous for putting small mounds behind forward tees so they aren't visible from the back.  Fazio has, on occasion, used artful mounding and staggered tees to almost completely hide the middle tees.  Of course, I suppose many hear would find that objectionable, feeling minimalism as a design trait trumps actually designing something that solves a stated problem.  I understand the idea that tee design, once purely functional, needs to get more complicated as we seek design "perfection", sort of like the endless pursuit of perfect bunkers seems like it can never end. 
That said, I think designing a playable, fun course, is one level higher thinking than providing perfect bunkers for imperfect shots.

All just MHO< of course, and posted for discussion purposes.




Well, when you start by siding with Mark, you should be looking around to see what's about to go wrong   ;)


There is nothing wrong with "wanting a tee where you can reach the green in regulation".  The 5000 yard tees Ally proposed would satisfy that for most golfers.  [The rest should just be teeing it up in the fairway and not worrying about a course rating.]


What I objected to was everybody wanting to hit the exact same club or shot into the green.  That's the sort of perfection that (a) can't really be achieved - either the tee shot or the second shot will have to be different - and (b) smacks of entitlement.  [Maybe I should say it's white privilege, and really shut you down.] 


If you want REAL optionality, then design the course from tee to green so that any player can play the course from any tee, instead of it all falling apart if they don't have their own perfect one.  And if you did so, you might find they don't need so many of them.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 07:45:28 PM by Tom_Doak »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2021, 08:47:12 PM »
Tom,
What do you mean by design the course so that any player can play the course from any tee?  There are many many courses that have been designed that any golfer can play the course from any tee?  It just might take them 6 1/2 hours and 150+ strokes!  My wife could easily play the tips at Lehigh for example but it gets old hitting driver then four or five hybrid clubs in a row (that is her main club on the fairway) to finally get to or around the green. 


I am not at all about trying to get all golfers to hit "the same clubs" into greens - that is hopeless.  It would just be nice if some golfers could hit "any" club to the green (or at least have the chance to do so). 


What is your aversion to more tees?  Is it aesthetics?  I don't have a problem, as you said, at all with golfers teeing it up short of the forward most tees in the fairway but no harm in putting some flat markers out there too that can even be moved around.  We have junior sets of tees for example like this at Lehigh for just that purpose.  They are actually fun to play from. 


I just played Harbour Town and their forward most tees are Green and about 5000 yards.  Every set of tees is rated for both men and women. 


I can make it down any ski slope but some of them might be on butt.  What fun is that? 

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2021, 10:17:50 PM »
One point worth making is that 500 yards is a HUGE difference in total course yardage e.g. 6000 yards - 6500 yards to 7000 yards to ....The longer the course the more starting points there should be (assuming we are talking formal ones).  Just my opinion. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2021, 11:15:26 PM »
Tom,
What do you mean by design the course so that any player can play the course from any tee?


[size=78%]Mark:[/size]


There are lots of modern courses that fall apart if you play them from too far back OR too short.  If you're too far back, you'll have a hybrid in your hands looking at a shallow green target guarded by water in front, that you have no chance of hitting and holding.  If you're too far forward, hitting driver might mean going through the dogleg or into a cross hazard or just a piece of fairway that is not built to accept golf shots very well.


A course like that needs a lot of tees, but even then, if the setup isn't perfect every day, you'll still face these sorts of situations on a couple of holes.


You can avoid by designing better from tee to green.  Minimize cross hazards in the fairway and forced carries to the green.  Be sure to leave someone who has to hit 4-wood home a reasonable play that doesn't inevitably wind up in a bunker or a pond.  If you get that part right, then it's not so impactful what tee you play from.  It's Dr. MacKenzie's 12th rule:


"The course should be so arranged that the long handicap player or even the absolute beginner should be able to enjoy his round in spite of the fact that he is piling up a big score.  In other words the beginner should not be continually harassed by losing strokes from playing out of sand bunkers.  The layout should be so arranged that he loses strokes because he is making wide detours to avoid hazards."


I understand that not everyone wants to pile up a big score, but you don't need five sets of tees to ensure that, unless the rest of the golf course is out of whack.






Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2021, 05:57:56 AM »
Tom,
Good points but someone above maybe summarized it best - there is a huge difference these days it how far golfers can hit the ball.  Some carry it 350 while others only carry it 75 or 80 yards.   And for the shorter hitters I am not talking about only beginners.  I am talking about golfers of both sexes who have played the game a long time.  Mackenzie and others I don’t think envisioned the vast differences in distance and ability.  More tees are a part of the solution.  Remember weaker golfers don’t think about many of those things you talked about like the pitch of a green, ball height, hitting it too far, ....  They are just trying to make solid contact.  The number of golfers in this category is enormous. 


Tees are simply starting points. They really don’t need to be any fancier than the fairway grass most golfers are seeking for their second shot.  How many tees does Sebonack have?  How many could it have  :D

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2021, 06:14:02 AM »
I don't see the difference between classic and modern when it comes to tee numbers. The archie must choose which level golfer is the primary target when designing the course and that includes the length of the course from the short green to tee walks....the primary tees. It is obvious that other tees are for the secondary target audiences. If this is done well there should be little need for mega forward tees unless there is a feature in play which causes problems. Okay, if these are kept to a minimum perhaps only a handful of very forward tees are required, thats OK.

The bottom line is archies have to decide what level of golfer is the primary tee aimed at. This has become more difficult in recent years with so many schmuck handicap players hitting the ball far, but their tees should be the walk back assuming there is space. It happens that in truth, so many old course lengths from the primary tees are now about right for a large market of golfers and that is around 6000 yards give or take. If anything the primary tees are still too long unless archies are targeting a smaller market of players.

In reality, more modern courses should be built with 5000 to 5500 yard primary tees if we really want to engage women.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2021, 06:22:58 AM »
If you want to be (or think like an architect) go to a busy local public driving range and watch golfers hit balls for an hour or two.  Then try to think about how you are going to design something fun and interesting for that wide range of abilities.  That is what we are dealing with for most golf courses. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2021, 06:56:13 AM »
Everyone knows the spread of driving distance is increasing among handicap players. The issue is do those who make decisions believe that all levels of golfers can be properly accommodated by tees on course ranging from 7200+ yards to 4500 yards. IMO that kind of thinking is a scam because it means there will be large gaps of time when many golfers will be disengaged from the design unless carts are used. If we are all in on carts, great, no worries. But then let's not talk about sustainability, pro environment and how golf is a game which promotes good health. There are clear choices to be made. Two of which are go down the path of mega tee cart golf or give up on trying to accommodate all levels of distance on one course.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2021, 07:38:42 AM »
Sean,
Why are you hung up on the walk between tees?  Why aren't you using that time to prepare for your next shot just like you do after you hit your driver and have to walk 300+ yards to that ball  :D  It is really no different. Nicklaus talks often about what he did on walks between holes.  You are using that time to take in the golf course and surroundings, calm yourself down or whatever and prepare for your next swing. 


If you are not used to walks between holes (regardless of modern vs classic course) you must have never played the forward (or back tees).  Usually one or the other requires a hike.  Yes I know the tee and hole used to be side by side but the game has changed.  There never used to be formal tees either (or lawyers)  :(



« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 07:46:53 AM by Mark_Fine »