Should classic courses have three or fewer teeing areas?

[mike_malone]

 While many modern courses have multiple teeing areas it’s my impression that classic courses have fewer. I’m thinking three or less are enough.

[John Kavanaugh]

The average age of classic club members is only going up. Careful.

[mike_malone]

The average age of classic club members is only going up. Careful.

They can contain more than one color of tee.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Three was always the norm at British and Irish courses, white, yellow and red. Generally it should be enough.


I’m in the process of trying to convince one course to move from 4 sets to 3.

[David Ober]

Three was always the norm at British and Irish courses, white, yellow and red. Generally it should be enough.


I’m in the process of trying to convince one course to move from 4 sets to 3.

What length course are we talking about? The longer the course, the more it is probably prudent to have if fourth or even fifth set of tees?

[Tim Martin]

Blue-Back
White-Member
Gold-Senior or Club
Red-Forward or Womens


I used to think three total worked but the Gold is a nice option for older male players or newer players. You always see more sets on modern courses where there are multiple forced carries.

[John Emerson]

Number of tees is far less important than size of the tee.

[Tom_Doak]

In many instances, the tees that should be erased are the championship tees.  Fewer than 10% of play is from back there, and only maybe 25% of the players who play them belong back there.

[mike_malone]

I can see the need for truly forward tees and eliminating the little used championship tees.

[Matthew Rose]

I know of a course that was originally blue-white-gold-red. The gold tees were almost always in pristine condition. The white were chewed up a month into every season. There were also people on the blues who didn't belong there.

One year they changed the order to gold-blue-white-red. Almost overnight the amount of people who began playing from where the gold markers were before basically doubled and took pressure off the rest of the teeing areas. Also fewer people went all the way back.


Amazing how there is still so much psychology attached to the color of the marker.


That was also 20 years ago so perhaps those attitudes are changing.

[Duncan Cheslett]

In many instances, the tees that should be erased are the championship tees.  Fewer than 10% of play is from back there, and only maybe 25% of the players who play them belong back there.

You’re quite right of course, but the championship tees are from where the maximum overall length of the course is measured from. This is of utmost importance to members in dick waving contests, even though hardly any of them will ever have played from there.


😉

[Thomas Dai]

Amazing how there is still so much psychology attached to the color of the marker.

+1 Golf is full of ego and vanity.
The sooner the colour red is removed from tee-markers etc the better.
atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

Amazing how there is still so much psychology attached to the color of the marker.

+1 Golf is full of ego and vanity.
The sooner the colour red is removed from tee-markers etc the better.
atb

Abolishing the concept of Ladies’ tees is critical. Paint the blocks a different colour and call them the forward tees.


Ladies should also be able to play from whichever tees they feel most comfortable with. There is probably more differential in the distances women hit the ball than there is with men. It’s crazy that they all play from the same tee.

[Mark_Fine]

I said on another thread, one of the most important things we can do for golf is to add more tees particularly shorter ones.  If I had my druthers, there would be no formal tees period.  Formal tees do have a purpose (primarily for handicapping purposes and to add some more structure to the game) but outside of that they can inhibit fun. 


Lehigh opened their upper nine holes today.  We will play a game where we rotate selected where you want to start each hole.  Try it sometime, it is fun and adds all kinds of variety. 

[Joe Hancock]

Instead of adding more tee areas, why not identify 3, well placed tee areas per hole, then let the golfers chose the area on each hole that suits them best on any given day based on conditions? Handicapping would only require course ratings based on the 5832 possible tee combinations.....

[Paul Dolton]

Amazing how there is still so much psychology attached to the color of the marker.

+1 Golf is full of ego and vanity.
The sooner the colour red is removed from tee-markers etc the better.
atb

Abolishing the concept of Ladies’ tees is critical. Paint the blocks a different colour and call them the forward tees.


Ladies should also be able to play from whichever tees they feel most comfortable with. There is probably more differential in the distances women hit the ball than there is with men. It’s crazy that they all play from the same tee.

Totally agree. I worked at one club where the seniors refused to play from the reds. We put out some ,I think , green tees and they happily played from them. They were placed about two yards behind the reds!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Instead of adding more tee areas, why not identify 3, well placed tee areas per hole, then let the golfers chose the area on each hole that suits them best on any given day based on conditions? Handicapping would only require course ratings based on the 5832 possible tee combinations.....

This is the right answer. You only need three tee areas with a course of - say- 5,000 or 6,000 or 7,000 yards. If the club doesn’t want the 5,832 combos that Joe highlights then pick 3 additional ones that are permanent using a mix of those tees: The medal tees of the day. Why sully the landscape with 4,5 or 6 individual teeing areas?

[Jeff_Brauer]

In many instances, the tees that should be erased are the championship tees.  Fewer than 10% of play is from back there, and only maybe 25% of the players who play them belong back there.

I am updating a decade old master plan right now.  The pro joked that I could put a new date on the old one, since none of the recommended work had been done.  As I plow through my standard analysis, one thing that has changed in the decade was neither the pro or I think this municipal course really needs back tees, given who plays there.  It's not even 10% who play the back tees, although most GM's and pros guess that.  I once asked the super at Wild Wing how many people had played the back tees there.  When he said "50" I assumed it was per year.  He corrected me to say it was 50 in the 8 years the course had been open up to that point, or about one foursome per year!


As to the original OP, I think we tend to lump the "Golden Age" or earlier periods together as one big blob that never changed.  If I understand it correctly, many courses started with one tee (at least TOC did) and saw the need to add a second, perhaps over 100 years later, I don't know.  Later, experience showed that 3 tees were a good idea, and that was more or less standard for another 80 years or so.  When courses started stretching out over 7,000 yards, some toyed with the idea of a fourth tee, then five, and sometimes six.


So my point is, form follows function, not history or nostalgia.  If the players at a particular course are happy with 3 tees, then no change is necessary, or if unhappy with 4 tees, then change may be (+ or - one tee at a time).  The trend among living golfers sure seems to be towards more tees.  Even for old courses who somehow resist the cost and trouble of actually building another tee, the members and pro come up with hybrid tees on every hole to get the course playing as long as certain groups of members prefer.

[Steve Lang]

   So  # of tees appears really the wrong question, the proper range between forward and rear tees is certainly site specific to the design(er), and not some formulaic value or percentage.  However, given the ego of golfers should never be under estimated, if I had to, I'd vote for 3 normal tees for regular everyday play & handicap purposes, i.e.,  forward, members, & back tees.  Let the committee decide where tees are placed for competitions.


ps I've mentioned on other threads, when Carol Mann came to the WCC, she had the back champ tees on the North Course (where the pros once played from) dug up and used to make new forward tees for the Ladies... they loved it and the small percentage of back tee guys got over it...   

[Tom_Doak]

In many instances, the tees that should be erased are the championship tees.  Fewer than 10% of play is from back there, and only maybe 25% of the players who play them belong back there.

I am updating a decade old master plan right now.  The pro joked that I could put a new date on the old one, since none of the recommended work had been done.  As I plow through my standard analysis, one thing that has changed in the decade was neither the pro or I think this municipal course really needs back tees, given who plays there.  It's not even 10% who play the back tees, although most GM's and pros guess that.  I once asked the super at Wild Wing how many people had played the back tees there.  When he said "50" I assumed it was per year.  He corrected me to say it was 50 in the 8 years the course had been open up to that point, or about one foursome per year!

Jeff:


I think Michael Keiser told me that at Sand Valley, 65% of players the middle "green" tees, and each of the other four sets got between 5% and 10% of the play.  And yet, they did not want to have less than five sets of markers for my shorter course, because people like "choice".

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,


The trend towards shorter courses, which I embrace, is relatively new, and certainly not time tested.  Even I admit I could be wrong on this one, LOL.


My stats have always been


1%-7000+
16% - 6800 or so
55% - 6300 or so
19% - sub 6000
8% - Sub 5000


So, a bit less than MK, but he probably knows what his courses do, I have to collect info from various courses and industry sources.  I do believe the lowest 4 groups above are all trending to slightly shorter courses by preference.


I always remember my Dad walking out of a pro shop, after seeing the course was only 6,000 yards total.  Now, I see seniors who won't play over 6,000 yards.  It seems to be a somewhat generational change in male ego, from my limited experience.


What's funny is how many golfers still refuse to play a course without 7,000 yard back tees, even with no intent to ever play them.  It is a residue of the old championship course mantra, and harder/longer is better as if a 6,600 yard course couldn't be well designed and fun.

[Jeff_Brauer]

  So  # of tees appears really the wrong question, the proper range between forward and rear tees is certainly site specific to the design(er), and not some formulaic value or percentage.  However, given the ego of golfers should never be under estimated, if I had to, I'd vote for 3 normal tees for regular everyday play & handicap purposes, i.e.,  forward, members, & back tees.  Let the committee decide where tees are placed for competitions.


ps I've mentioned on other threads, when Carol Mann came to the WCC, she had the back champ tees on the North Course (where the pros once played from) dug up and used to make new forward tees for the Ladies... they loved it and the small percentage of back tee guys got over it...

So, maybe RTJ had it right after all.....only 3 tees, but each of them over 50 yards long, LOL.

[corey miller]

Isn't it better to have four sets of colors/tees that may have 10 yards or more of variability on every hole than eight sets of tees that move perhaps a yard or two a day? 


Does anyone have an example of a course that added tees yet increased the daily variability of where the tee markers were placed?   

[Joe Hancock]

Isn't it better to have four sets of colors/tees that may have 10 yards or more of variability on every hole than eight sets of tees that move perhaps a yard or two a day? 


Does anyone have an example of a course that added tees yet increased the daily variability of where the tee markers were placed?

Great point.


This is the nuance of logic that goes missing when you let the “customer is always right” method of design take hold. As TD mentioned, when the Keiser’s add more tee areas because the customer wants “choice”, what they really end up with is “same”, once they decide on a color.

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
If you want to call those long runway tees each one tee then maybe it can work  [size=78%]  [/size]


But do the math.  If you have a 7000 yard golf course from the back tees, there really should be a set of tees in the 4500 yard range or less.  Where do you put the third (middle tee) if you only want three sets.  Good luck with that. 
Mark