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Tom_Doak

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Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2021, 03:55:30 PM »

I also don’t think I agree that the lob wedge is the only option around the greens because of the tight lies and, actually, the height of the greens. Indeed, the greens are so high that chipping a 60 degree won’t get the ball high enough or with enough steam to get up the hill. And most players aren’t confident enough to open up a 60 from a tight lie. If I miss 5 greens on a nine at Sweetens, then I typically find myself putting two, wedging two, and chipping one.





Parker:


I don't carry anything more lofted than a pitching wedge, so I didn't think about that part of Michael's criticism . . . I just noted that the greens were pretty difficult to chip and putt to, especially since there are a few holes where there will likely be a bunker in your way.  Those shots would not be easy with an L-wedge, either, unless you were a pretty good player.


Brian Finn

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Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2021, 08:17:10 PM »
I’ve been to SC once, last summer.  Played as part of a group of 20 guys, all golf nuts of different shapes and sizes. We had good conditions, a set of crazy tough hole locations and a set of “gettable” ones. Everyone went around 4 or more times, and we played all over the place until sundown. 

For me, it’s an incredibly fun and interesting place to try to hit all sorts of challenging and different shots. Playing in an old vs. young match (i was on the very old side of the group), my partner said it felt more like a skatepark, where you could go around and round trying all sorts of tricks to/from different spots, throughout the day. He didn’t think it was a great golf course, but he did think it was a compelling place for a golfer to spend a day. I tend to agree with his assessment. After the 3rd hole, the rhythm or flow wasn’t great. The 4th has a very cool green, but it’s horribly suited for a blind par 3. The 5th is really fun. I watched one of my (much more) skilled friends hit a high, beautiful faded 3 wood flag high and roll in a stress-free Eagle. I tried (stupidly) to sling my ugly hook in a few times, even knowing the smart play for me would be laying up to a comfy SW distance.  SC just doesn’t seem like the place to lay up, especially since we were the first to rent out the NLU house by the 1st green. The 6th is probably the best traditional golf hole on the course (actually the first might be), in some sense. I know traditional definitely isn’t what they were going for, but that’s my observation there. 7 and 8 were fine.  Besides the 8th green, i actually found them the least memorable on the overwhelmingly memorable course. 9 green is certainly extreme, but i really liked it. Seemed perfect, especially with the heckle deck just above. 

Is it great?  Should it be ranked on a top 100 list?  I don’t know, and despite being a lover of lists, don’t think i care.  The rambling, nonsense above probably shows that i have mixed feelings, but I had a great day due to the combination of company, course, and atmosphere. We planned to do it again, possibly even renting out the whole course in 2021, but last i heard they are sold out for the season.  I don’t think I’d like to play there regularly, but I could see spending a day there every year or two.  It’s a great add to a Lookout Mountain, Black Creek, et al trip to Chattanooga.

Edit:  Our group also spent a full day at Sewanee that weekend, and there was a pretty even split on which course we preferred.  Two pretty good 9 holers in close proximity makes for a fun comparison, even if they’re really apples and bananas.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 08:23:42 PM by Brian Finn »
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2021, 08:40:33 PM »

For me, it’s an incredibly fun and interesting place to try to hit all sorts of challenging and different shots. Playing in an old vs. young match (i was on the very old side of the group), my partner said it felt more like a skatepark, where you could go around and round trying all sorts of tricks to/from different spots, throughout the day. He didn’t think it was a great golf course, but he did think it was a compelling place for a golfer to spend a day. I tend to agree with his assessment.


The skate park analogy is a very good one, as is your first sentence.  I suppose you could say the same about a place like Bandon Dunes, but no one does, because nearly everyone is thinking about playing 18 holes and posting a number.  Would golf be better if most people let go of that and just tried to hit cool shots?






Daryl David

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Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2021, 08:41:09 PM »
Edit:  Our group also spent a full day at Sewanee that weekend, and there was a pretty even split on which course we preferred.  Two pretty good 9 holers in close proximity makes for a fun comparison, even if they’re really apples and bananas.


Glad to see this mentioned. The highlight of my 3 trips to Sweetens were the rounds at Sewanee. While I had fun at SC, I really love Sewanee.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2021, 08:43:29 PM »
Edit:  Our group also spent a full day at Sewanee that weekend, and there was a pretty even split on which course we preferred.  Two pretty good 9 holers in close proximity makes for a fun comparison, even if they’re really apples and bananas.


Glad to see this mentioned. The highlight of my 3 trips to Sweetens were the rounds at Sewanee. While I had fun at SC, I really love Sewanee.


I was sorry to have missed it, but there was a thunderstorm moving in and I did not have time to try.  But yours is by far the strongest endorsement of Sewanee I've heard to date.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2021, 09:03:47 PM »
Deliberate opening post, haven't played it, nothing to add.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #56 on: March 15, 2021, 01:41:03 AM »
P2, Tim Wieman (a one time resident) once described Nashville as an "architectural wasteland."  Meaning golf of course.  So to have something new, innovative, accessible and affordable (then) 90 minutes away was pretty exciting.  I also love quirk - perhaps too much.  Sweeten's Cove is loaded with The WOW Factor and as Vince Gill sang "Everybody's ready for the next big thing."


Really that simple.  I felt like I got behind the make-up for the first time this week and saw the course in a different light. 


Let me be clear:  I highly recommend a day there for anyone on this site.


Mike
Mike,


I forgot all about describing Nashville as an “architectural wasteland”. But things got worse. After Nashville, I took a job in Houston!


Try to imagine this: one colleague who fashioned himself as knowing good golf courses questioned my assertion that Houston wasn’t exactly Mecca. He thought I was crazy to suggest there were better courses in Philadelphia, OMG!
Tim Weiman

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2021, 06:10:31 AM »
Out of interest how many people are there on the maintenance crew at Sweetens?
atb

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2021, 08:24:38 AM »
Greetings from architectural wasteland.


Sometime in 2012 or 2013 I drove down to check out this new construction I had heard about, at the time it was called Battle Creek. I played by myself, as there was no one else around. There was no shed, no employees, no honor box. I couldn’t believe it existed an hour and a half from my house. I posted something on Max’s about it and got a message from Adam Lawrence who connected me to Rob and I started going over a couple times a year. I fell in love with the place. Wanted it to succeed in the worst way because the course was so much different than everything else around here and because it was Rob’s course.


Fast forward a couple years, maybe 2015, I remember talking with Ran and he asked me my thoughts about Sweetens. I told him I loved it. He then asked me if I thought that they will make it because at the time the business hadn’t yet caught fire, it was struggling. I’ll never forget my answer. I said no, I don’t think it will survive.


Later that year my friend Brandon Urban, who lived in Kansas at the time, Came to stay with me over New Year’s, I guess he drove 10 hours or so, but it wasn’t just to get out of the snow and hang with his bud in still cold Tennessee, it was specifically to play Sweetens Cove! Boy did we have fun (oh my God THAT word! Look away!!)


Who knew then that Brandon would be the first Sweetens pilgrim and I was WAF in my reply to Ran. I couldn’t be happier for those guys, all of em, who put in the long hours, who didn’t give up, and succeeded in bringing much joy to a heck of a lot of people.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 08:43:53 AM by Eric Smith »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2021, 09:32:28 AM »
I am surprised that a long GCA thread on a controversial golf course makes so few mentions of historical parallels.


How is the controversy around SC like (or unlike) MacK's wild greens at Sitwell Park, at Pasa or at ANGC? (ANGC circa 1934 was golf architecture on acid.) Or the 17th at Cypress? Colt's edgy holes at St George's Hill (the 1st and 8th come to mind) were disliked intensely by many and eventually toned down.


Have GCA's nutty old iconoclasts turned into Philistines?


Bob 

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2021, 09:41:19 AM »
Our group also spent a full day at Sewanee that weekend, and there was a pretty even split on which course we preferred.  Two pretty good 9 holers in close proximity makes for a fun comparison, even if they’re really apples and bananas.


When one of my kids was looking at colleges two years ago, we toured Sewanee. He humored me by taking an hour to walk the course. It looked like a blast (Hanse renovated it, right?). After that, I had to be very careful to keep myself in check when he was deciding where to go, because my bias was pretty clear and selfishly I would've loved to visit him a few times a year and play that course. It ended up being in his top two, pretty much a coin flip, but he decided to stay in New England. Considering the impact of covid on his freshman year, I'm glad he did. But someday I'll get back there ... I was told a 36-hole day split between Sewanee and SC is as good as it gets.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2021, 09:47:50 AM »
A day split between SC and Sewanee is a good day indeed. The Sewanee Inn is also delightful. Our room overlooked the 8th green.

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2021, 10:34:30 AM »
First & foremost one thing above all that fuels the passion for the architecture is that I love the discovery process. Went to Sweetens in 2016 to see what I could find. Was very pleased w/ the presentation and very much enjoyed the 9 holes. There are things there you never see & I liked much that(The Pope's Hat! The drivable par 4 5th hole, LOVED the Par 3 4th) and some things that I just scratched my head at (left hand side of 8th green, the tree in front of the 3rd green, the 9th green). Driving back to ATL to fly home after that round I kept thinking that was cool, but not sure how much desire I had to go back.


Few years later was passing through and did the Sewanee / Sweetens doubleheader. Sewanee was very good. There was a serious lack of a vibe here. It's a golf course, nothing else. No double pins, no cool swag, no shed, just a laid back rock-solid southern course. Would love to see it again as I know I missed things. At that time Sweetens was roaring, post-ringer events social media buzz off the charts. Still the same feeling for me, some things I like a lot and still the same head scratchers. I think from an architectural endeavor it's an astounding feet and a great way for all to spend the day and discover it. In the end there other places for me to see. I tell others to go there and discover it for themselves. I may go back, if I do I'll want to see Sewanee again. Given the choice and in the area today I'd rather seek out Black Creek. Another course to discover.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2021, 10:47:04 AM »
Seems to me that we keep complicating this thing.  Rob says in another thread that they sold out an entire season of weekend tee times in 31 minutes. That's pretty amazing. And I will guarantee you that most of the people purchasing said tee times are not archie freaks...I'm an architect but I don't freak over golf courses...and I can appreciate design that may not be my personal style.  Past generations presented golf in a different manner...people like SC...it's good for golf.  The older I become the more I am convinced that atmosphere is a bigger factor than architecture with so many of the clubs we admire but we don't know how to say it.  JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2021, 10:57:44 AM »
I am surprised that a long GCA thread on a controversial golf course makes so few mentions of historical parallels.

How is the controversy around SC like (or unlike) MacK's wild greens at Sitwell Park, at Pasa or at ANGC? (ANGC circa 1934 was golf architecture on acid.) Or the 17th at Cypress? Colt's edgy holes at St George's Hill (the 1st and 8th come to mind) were disliked intensely by many and eventually toned down.





Is there actually much controversy about the course?  Or is that just how they've positioned it in their marketing, "us against the world," in order to get people on their side?


I have not read very many negative things about Sweetens Cove at all, unless you consider "it isn't the greatest thing ever," controversial.  Indeed that's exactly what made me skeptical about it and want to see it:  the pictures I'd seen made it look much more polarizing than the commentary, which has been nearly all favorable.  This thread has been 85-90% positive, and I have not read many posts on this thread that I would disagree with, pro or con, based on my round there.


I do find it interesting that several people [notably Adam and Eric] have mentioned that their early advocacy of the course was rooted partly in friendship with Rob, feeling sorry for him that the course might be doomed, and wanting it to survive.  That "us against the world" mentality is probably the closest thing to an actual cult that we will discuss here.  Those looking for a blind taste test should probably think twice here.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2021, 01:13:15 PM »
There were several comments about the design of SC. One poster did not like a blind drive over a finger of the marsh. Others thought the 6th green problematical, the 1st was too easy for longer players, the Redan 9th needed its tee moved to the right, nearer the 1st fw, and so forth.


I don't know SC well enough (I've played it once) to have views about any of that, but they are interesting observations. I am disappointed they did not spur further discussion. Such discussions would benefit from discussions a century ago when MacK, Colt, Simpson and others tried, like Collins, to break with the usual expectations.


Everyone likes - in theory - the idea of pushing the envelope. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't. We moderns have the benefit of more than a century of such attempts. SC would be a good place to apply some of the lessons from that history.


Bob         

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2021, 01:45:49 PM »
Go play Winter Park 9 and see if you have the same reaction.


I played WP9 and thought it was in a nice area, cheap to play but its dead flat and has very little architectural interest except some greens that slope?  Matt Ginela has been promoting it so every yahoo has been flocking to it.


Don't be afraid to go against the wind.  I need to go see SC.


I've played the Winter Park 9. While it lacks significant interest from the tee, the greens are indeed well-designed, fun and interesting. One does need to find the correct side of the fairways (not necessarily revealing upon the first go-round) to allow for any kind of pin-hunting or birdie chances. It's easy to play for all levels of skills, yet harder to score on. That well be part of the promotional magic of the place.


 The vibe there was inviting and pleasant, and the place was was humming. It's easy to see how this kind of accessible golf has restored a certain energy to it's neighborhood. All of this said, it wasn't so unique or special that it lived up to the Ginella hype. In general, I'm even more of a skeptic when golf's social media "influencers" and promoters are out hyping something. In WP9's case, I certainly enjoyed it, but can't say I was much more than pleasantly impressed.


  As for Sweeten's Cove, I was hoping to play it last Spring while taking my daughter on a college tour, but COVID kiboshed the plan and I've long been intrigued to get there for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is my general inclination as a Golf Magazine panelist to visit anywhere I've never seen.


  The obvious is all the social media hype and press the place has received, yet I've heard similar opinions to Bogeys. Interestingly, one of my business partners and regular playing buddies is an investor in the place and while he certainly loves playing there he doesn't think it's without some flaws (how many courses, 9-holes or 18, don't have them?). We usually agree about courses the super-majority of the time, but who knows? I'll reserve my opinion until after a few plays.


  He and I (and maybe a few other recognizable posters here) have promised to drive up to Inness, NY later this summer to see the King Collins 9-hole course they are building on update farmland. We look forward to seeing what this media-visible team will produce up that way.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 01:49:38 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Rob Collins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens New
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2021, 01:47:40 PM »
Tom,
I’ve grown accustomed to you mischaracterizing our work on this message board, but your stunning tendency toward presumptuousness combined with cynical dismissiveness is really on full display here.   The “marketing” of the course is actually the same as it has always been, and its success is rooted in the remarkably simple concept of putting the work in day after day, much the same as the construction of the course.  Patrick and I realized early on that an important part of what we were trying to create required welcoming people and spending time in one-on-one situations that went beyond what you would see at a typical golf course.  These building blocks were built person-by-person, day-by-day, year-after-year, many times by Patrick, who essentially chained himself to the porch for about 3.5 years.  This same method continues today with Colt, Matt, and the rest of the staff welcoming newcomers from all over the world.  The stature, popularity, and fame of the course is owed much to its spread on social media & the cascade of organic publicity, but the real work that resonated with people, and the secret that still provides the foundation for Sweetens Cove, comes from hard work and a very genuine desire by those in employ of the Club to play host, concierge, etc., a sort of band of golf Sherpas who happily show the place off new and old customers, alike, every day.  Tens and tens of thousands of people over the last 6.5 years have been touched by this approach, and the golf course has steadily grown organically as a result. None of the “marketing”, which you cynically dismiss is accurately portrayed by you, and furthermore, the “YouTube stars” that others have mentioned wouldn’t have seen the course without this work.   
Finally, there is a separate dimension to the work at Sweetens Cove that makes it special.  There’s a spark there. It’s a light that shines, a soul. It’s not something that can be quantified or measured in any architectural sense, but you better believe that it is part of the architecture.  What was there previously was as dead as a catfish rotting on the banks of Battle Creek.  What is there now gives some people a profound feeling that has been expressed to me in countless DMs, text messages, and emails.  It’s an energy that resonates from the course itself. I cherish each one of them because our work was able to connect on a non-superficial level with people.  It does not surprise me that you would fail to pick up on that, but it is there. 
I bring all of this up because there is an overarching tendency by you, and others, to dismiss Sweetens as something superficial, when the success of Sweetens, from the golf course itself to the way that we connect with other people, is the opposite of superficial.  I’ll add that as a result of the unlikely chain of events that led to my long-term ownership connection to the course, I’ve been lucky to make many connections and form relationships that I wouldn’t have otherwise. I wish that for more GCA’s, as it is nice to have a connection that doesn’t end with the fulfillment of the build.



Is there actually much controversy about the course?  Or is that just how they've positioned it in their marketing, "us against the world," in order to get people on their side?


I have not read very many negative things about Sweetens Cove at all, unless you consider "it isn't the greatest thing ever," controversial.  Indeed that's exactly what made me skeptical about it and want to see it:  the pictures I'd seen made it look much more polarizing than the commentary, which has been nearly all favorable.  This thread has been 85-90% positive, and I have not read many posts on this thread that I would disagree with, pro or con, based on my round there.


I do find it interesting that several people [notably Adam and Eric] have mentioned that their early advocacy of the course was rooted partly in friendship with Rob, feeling sorry for him that the course might be doomed, and wanting it to survive.  That "us against the world" mentality is probably the closest thing to an actual cult that we will discuss here.  Those looking for a blind taste test should probably think twice here.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 02:55:33 PM by Rob Collins »
Rob Collins

www.kingcollinsgolf.com
@kingcollinsgolf on Twitter
@kingcollinsgolf on Instagram

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2021, 01:59:41 PM »
In 2017 I had a two week job in Huntsville, Al. I told my coworkers that I would like to play golf on my Sunday off and they said one of the people at the plant had played the mini tours and I should solicit his advice. He recommended the RTJ Trail course there in Huntsville. Channeling my best Jon Spaulding I said “ I don’t travel for RTJ Sr., hard par, easy bogey is not my idea of fun!” I decided to make the hour drive north to Pittsburg.


I decided to play the white tees, hey I’m a white tee kinda guy. As I pegged it up on #1 I saw the plaque saying 470, perfect. I birdied it with a PW in and as I was recording my score noticed that the white tee yardage would add up to around 5,700. But if I moved back to the blues I wouldn’t be able to try and drive the 3 reachable par 4’s; I finished the first nine off the whites and was glad I did. Got up and down for birdie on 2, drove 5 and two putted, up and down for birdie on 7. I moved to the blues for the second nine and couldn’t get close the the short 4’s at 300 yards but still had fun, birdieing 1 and 9. I tied my career best of 70. I couldn’t imagine having more fun on a golf course. I had the place to myself, there was a foursome ahead of me and a single behind playing hickories. Ari Techner was running the shop that day. The course was set up fairly easy with a front pin on the par 3 4th and a right side pin on #8. I thought conditions were great knowing that the previous iteration was constantly waterlogged. The greens putted perfectly and it was a great value for what I paid. I sure glad I made the trip up as access on the weekends now seems impossible. Very happy that it’s turned into such a success and wish we had something that cutting edge here in SD.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Soured on Sweetens
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2021, 02:16:25 PM »

I really expected Sweetens to prove much more controversial with much more consistency back when I played it during grow-in:

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58154.msg1363176.html#msg1363176


I understand and agree with much of what Bogey writes. The drainage of the property just isn't great. Some of the green complexes are pretty wildly severe. And it's objectively short by modern standards, and probably a little friendlier for the long and high ball hitter who can set up a lot of wedges and then take advantage.


Then again...


Architecturally, I think it drains quite well. I've played it twice, never long after a rain, and I think it drains awfully well considering how tough a site it was on that front. I also think it offers a lot of variety considering its modest length.


And to the point of that variety... I think it's a surprisingly subtle course. Behind the visible audacity lies a real importance on positioning throughout the round. I like that it's a course without "right answers." I think I know where I want to approach certain pins from when I play out there. But Eric Smith has sometimes disagreed with my assessments. The linked thread above references playing the 5th hole for the first time. I remember that round with Lyn Young, Rees, and Franky K like it just happened... shivering in my powder blue shorts waiting for the sun to come out. Standing on the tee, I was sure I knew where Position A was. Once I got to the fairway, I wasn't so sure anymore. I still don't think I've found a "right" way to play that hole... although I've only played it twice.


It's funny to think about how Sweetens has become overpowered by its mythology. Because that first day we played it, nobody was sure whether it was going to be called Battle Creek or Sequatchie or what. Nobody really knew whether it would survive or ever be seen. Rob was very open about that part when he thanked us for coming and gave us a few words of guidance before we teed off. We didn't have any real expectations going in - I was excited to see a course during grow-in. I had no idea it would become a sensation.


In that light, the place couldn't help shining - dormant turf, 6 month old pin positions, and unfilled bunkers notwithstanding.


I do think we might have rushed to proclaim its greatness, without spending enough time discussing the Why. I can't really recall ever discussing it hole-by-hole among the Illuminati here. That rush to proclaim its greatness might have been what put it on the map and turned it into a success story. I'm ok with that, but it might be time to discuss in some detail.


I do think the tee shot at 1 is awkward as hell, but that's fine for a par 5. If my favorite thing about Sweetens is how it gives you rampant width leading to very small targets where angle of approach actually matters even in 2021, then the layup on 1 for a player who's not taking it at the green is a pretty great introduction to the place. I like that two golfers can approach that green at a 90* angle to one another, with both thinking they're in Position A, but that the player right in between them will know that he's screwed right away. I don't like the version of Strategic Golf where everybody with half a brain can see Position A with a quick glance at the yardage book. I prefer the version where you need to account for pin placement, your strengths and weaknesses, and contours... and where you're still second-guessing yourself just a bit even as you start your backswing.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.