News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Marty Bonnar

Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« on: March 11, 2021, 05:48:01 PM »
Not many of them this side of the pond. What’s the construction detail for them? Expected lifespan? Most suitable timber species? Specialist Contractors?
Cheers,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tom_Doak

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2021, 05:59:10 PM »
Marty:


The club historian at Crooked Stick told me the reason Pete Dye used so many railroad ties early in his career was that the largest supplier of them in the country was a member there, and gave Pete the reject ties for practically nothing!


They also had the largest supplier of creosote, which is pretty nasty environmentally, but which allows them to be half submerged for quite a long time before they rot.

Philippe Binette

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2021, 07:34:56 PM »
Wood and water isn’t a great duo on the long term.
If you want to built a retaining wall like at sawgrass, i’d recommand using recycled plastic timber
See hahnplastics.com as a supplier.. it’s a great alternative and could last more than 100 years!!

Steve Lang

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2021, 08:34:48 PM »
 8)  I had to deal with coal tar losses/cleanup once at a coal/coke plant and remember that creosote from coal tar distillation got a bad rap as being a possible human carcinogen, really from the way they tested it on lab rats, versus human exposure data.   As coal or wood tar creosote not a listed hazardous waste, the client sent contaminated soils and waste to an industrial, non-hazardous waste landfill.  However, I wouldn't stand downwind of any burning railroad ties if I were you, some of the volatiles are nasty!   
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Adam Lawrence

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2021, 05:29:45 AM »
EcoBunker has a lake edge product called Aqua Edge. One can obviously have one's own view about the use of recycled artificial turf on golf courses generally, but it certainly works.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net
Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting

'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' 'Up Top: the story of Landmand' (both forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all

Anthony_Nysse

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2021, 08:48:39 AM »
25-30 years is fair.


In 2016, we installed a full bulkhead wall down the right of #17 at Old Marsh.  Replaced the original bulkheads on #3, #14, #9/#18. # 5 was installed in 2012, #7 was installed in 2013, #8 was done in 2004 along with #16.


They are exactly the same built as TPC. They are installed under the water line X amount of feet and anchored in the the adjacent soil about 6'.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL


Thomas Dai

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2021, 10:28:34 AM »
Railway sleepers, pretty commonly used in the U.K. The close proximity of many coastal railway lines to links courses might have had something to do with it. Similarly the use of driftwood, even ‘new’ driftwood under seaborne transportation, plankage, pallets etc washed up etc on beaches adjacent to links courses.
Atb




JJShanley

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2021, 10:33:49 AM »
25-30 years is fair.


In 2016, we installed a full bulkhead wall down the right of #17 at Old Marsh.  Replaced the original bulkheads on #3, #14, #9/#18. # 5 was installed in 2012, #7 was installed in 2013, #8 was done in 2004 along with #16.


They are exactly the same built as TPC. They are installed under the water line X amount of feet and anchored in the the adjacent soil about 6'.


I assume that, with a lifespan of 20-30 years, there's no benefit to using the "wood" made of milk jugs that's used for garden furniture. ("Polywood" has a 20 year warranty from what I can see.) I was looking at Adirondack chairs a few days ago as I miss having one.

Marty Bonnar

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2021, 11:44:35 AM »
25-30 years is fair.


In 2016, we installed a full bulkhead wall down the right of #17 at Old Marsh.  Replaced the original bulkheads on #3, #14, #9/#18. # 5 was installed in 2012, #7 was installed in 2013, #8 was done in 2004 along with #16.


They are exactly the same built as TPC. They are installed under the water line X amount of feet and anchored in the the adjacent soil about 6'.


Ah, Anthony,
So there’s no foundations as such. They’re just ‘pinned’ back into the retained soil?
I had wondered if they perhaps were driven in like piles.
Nice detail.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Anthony_Nysse

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2021, 01:03:49 PM »
25-30 years is fair.


In 2016, we installed a full bulkhead wall down the right of #17 at Old Marsh.  Replaced the original bulkheads on #3, #14, #9/#18. # 5 was installed in 2012, #7 was installed in 2013, #8 was done in 2004 along with #16.


They are exactly the same built as TPC. They are installed under the water line X amount of feet and anchored in the the adjacent soil about 6'.


Ah, Anthony,
So there’s no foundations as such. They’re just ‘pinned’ back into the retained soil?
I had wondered if they perhaps were driven in like piles.
Nice detail.
F.


The ones I have been a part of building, do not have a foundation in the sense of a cement footer. They are inserted into the soil of the pond edge & secured.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Marty Bonnar

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2021, 09:45:22 AM »
Thanks, Anthony.
Do you have any construction photos at all? I’d be very interested to see!
Cheers,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Anthony_Nysse

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2021, 01:13:58 PM »
Thanks, Anthony.
Do you have any construction photos at all? I’d be very interested to see!
Cheers,
F.


We did weekly videos of the renovation in 2016. If your forward to 2:20, you can see them installing the retaining wall on #9/18


https://youtu.be/OB9zbS54KDc

















Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Marty Bonnar

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2021, 01:19:02 PM »
Brilliant stuff - thanks!
Definitely driven in like piles though!
Cheers,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mike_Young

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2021, 07:21:41 PM »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Marty Bonnar

Re: Timber retaining walls at soil/water interface
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2021, 01:01:45 PM »
This site should answer most questions:   http://www.americanpoleandtimber.com/wp-content/uploads/aquatic-wetland-construction.pdf


Thanks, Mike. That was some seriously good reading for us ‘detail saddos’!
Cheers,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tags: