Bring back the wide bunker rake tines!

[Sean_A]

A shot from a perfectly raked bunker is a 60%+ up-and-down for the Tour guys in the "perfect lie" scenario.

Just under a half-shot penalty seems appropriate for a bunker and Hugh Wilson agreed. He argued that if a bunker was ultimately no different from a water hazard with a drop there is no point in having a bunker.

That attitude is how we got the White Faces of Merion.

how are you getting a half-shot penalty? Assume rough, instead of a bunker, and maybe the up and down is 75%, so the delta there is 15%, not 50%. (Yes, I pulled those number out of my booty!).


Modern bunkers are nowhere near enough of a penalty, IMHO. I want to see everyone fear the unpredictable nature of greenside bunkers. You go into one and you think ... "Uh oh, what awaits me when I get there," instead of "I will likely make par and almost certainly not make double-bogey."


In other words, I would like it to be where a 30-yard pitch OVER a bunker is perhaps the preferred leave than IN the bunker -- due to its unpredictable nature.

Do this through placement and number, not lie. Contour funneling a ball to a bunker 20 yards from the landing spot, etc.


Hugh Wilson's point is compelling. The minute recovery becomes more costly than a stroke, you've just created a penalty area.

This is false logic. Water hazards almost always result in a 1 shot penalty. Bunkers on average for pros results in less than a 1 shot penalty. In truth it may be no penalty or it may be a few strokes. Using "average" results can be very misleading.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

A shot from a perfectly raked bunker is a 60%+ up-and-down for the Tour guys in the "perfect lie" scenario.

Just under a half-shot penalty seems appropriate for a bunker and Hugh Wilson agreed. He argued that if a bunker was ultimately no different from a water hazard with a drop there is no point in having a bunker.

That attitude is how we got the White Faces of Merion.

how are you getting a half-shot penalty? Assume rough, instead of a bunker, and maybe the up and down is 75%, so the delta there is 15%, not 50%. (Yes, I pulled those number out of my booty!).


Modern bunkers are nowhere near enough of a penalty, IMHO. I want to see everyone fear the unpredictable nature of greenside bunkers. You go into one and you think ... "Uh oh, what awaits me when I get there," instead of "I will likely make par and almost certainly not make double-bogey."


In other words, I would like it to be where a 30-yard pitch OVER a bunker is perhaps the preferred leave than IN the bunker -- due to its unpredictable nature.

Do this through placement and number, not lie. Contour funneling a ball to a bunker 20 yards from the landing spot, etc.


Hugh Wilson's point is compelling. The minute recovery becomes more costly than a stroke, you've just created a penalty area.

This is false logic. Water hazards almost always result in a 1 shot penalty. Bunkers on average for pros results in less than a 1 shot penalty. In truth it may be no penalty or it may be a few strokes. Using "average" results can be very misleading.

Ciao

Wilson's point was more that if a bunker even carried a substantial risk of a greater-than-one-shot penalty then it is as bad/worse than a water hazard where you generally MUST take a stroke penalty and drop. Why have the bunker be so penal that it is as such and then *force* the player to extricate himself. If you are almost guaranteed to take more than one shot from a bunker due to it's design/maintenance what are you proving?

There is a Venn Diagram of "luck" and "skill" when it comes to a bunker but the bunker is probably more compelling when greater than half the surface area of each circle is within the overlap.

All told, I think this supports what I think is your opinion that most bunker schemes are over done.

[Sean_A]

The important distinction is for pros. I bet for handicap players the penalty on average is over 1 shot!

Which is why I am all for

-even more difficult bunkers
-treat sand like water for penalty drops
-far fewer bunkers, but more aggressively placed

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

The important distinction is for pros. I bet for handicap players the penalty on average is over 1 shot!
Which is why I am all for
-even more difficult bunkers
-treat sand like water for penalty drops
-far fewer bunkers, but more aggressively placed
Ciao

+1
Atb

[Kyle Harris]

The important distinction is for pros. I bet for handicap players the penalty on average is over 1 shot!

You're describing what makes a pro a pro and what makes a handicap player a handicap player. Nice to know the bunkers are doing their job in helping to distinguish between the two.

[Sean_A]

The important distinction is for pros. I bet for handicap players the penalty on average is over 1 shot!

You're describing what makes a pro a pro and what makes a handicap player a handicap player. Nice to know the bunkers are doing their job in helping to distinguish between the two.

Well yes, bunkers are a highlight skill for pros. Too much talk of architecture revolves around the skills of too few people.


Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

The important distinction is for pros. I bet for handicap players the penalty on average is over 1 shot!

You're describing what makes a pro a pro and what makes a handicap player a handicap player. Nice to know the bunkers are doing their job in helping to distinguish between the two.

Well yes, bunkers are a highlight skill for pros. Too much talk of architecture revolves around the skills of too few people.


Ciao

I don't disagree here!

And my ideal maintenance meld of bunkers is somewhere in the middle of perfect and utter sh*tshow. Remove the rakes and very sternly request that players smooth their damage with their foot.

Let kangaroo courts and ostracizing bad behavior rule the day. If we're going to do this "golf as social model" thing, let's go all in.

[Pete_Pittock]

I'm with you on these last two points, Kyle. There are ways to make bunkers play like hazards without furrowing. Although I also don't dislike furrowing as an idea, especially on existing courses with large, flat-bottomed bunkers already in place and when they're filled with player-friendly sand.
Honestly, after a year of COVID life, I'd be happy to see ANY bunker rakes. I think they'll be back on my home course this weekend.

I can do without the rakes. Using your foot to smooth your marks provides a good compromise of uneven surface and recovery.

works fine in small bunkers with firm sand, a disaster in large bunker with fluffy conditions.