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Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirk versus bad luck - should they be equal?
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2021, 03:32:47 AM »
The "simplify" the rules crowd are always conflating the idea of simple and fair with what they really mean...


...make the games easier.


Every penalty drop has an extremely SIMPLE and FAIR option. Stroke and distance. No question where to drop and treats everyone equally.


Got into it on Twitter with a guy that said I was over-complicating divot relief by asking things like what constituted a divot, etc.


How can you be the one over complicating it when your argument is literally...


Play. The. Shot.


If you ever want to know the motivation of the golf for fun crowd it always boils down to they don't want to practice or learn but need to fake a score.


Never understood that. If you're playing for fun, does it really matter if you make a 9?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirk versus bad luck - should they be equal?
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2021, 07:30:21 AM »
As I understand it, in her return to tournament golf Anika's ball was up against the gate of a boundary fence and she got an incorrect ruling from an official when he told her she could not open the unlocked gate before hitting her shot.  I know the rules guys will give some type of explanation for this ruling and at the same time justify that you cannot remove a boundary stake and then replace it but that was not my original point/question which dealt with certain situations at the professional level which seem to be inconsistent or unfair.














 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirk versus bad luck - should they be equal?
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2021, 08:20:00 AM »
I'm all for playing it where it lies...if we apply the rule universally and cancel undo all the exceptions that already exist in the rule book for a myriad of other situations.

BDC got to take a free drop, and eventually place his ball at acritical juncture, cause a sprinkler head was nearby that likely didn't even affect  him, yet Lee just had to man up and take his bad luck? 

Lets bring some consistency to the rules, even if that means consistent bad luck for everyone more often...


There WAS consistency in the rules, until pop culture intervened to "simplify" them.
They're not simple, never were, got much, much more controversial(and inconsistent) when they tried to simplify them, and now they are more complicated than ever to interpret them.
I defy any lay person who demanded the rules be simpler to tell me they are, and that they now know and understand them(even us pros don't anymore-and we certainly used to)
The patsy ass rules officials on tour don't help.
They've basically made it come down to the reputation of the player and his later crucifixion or exoneration on Twitter.


The rules will NEVER be fair, they will just be the rules.
Denying anchoring is fair? Using a cheater line is fair? Having your caddie line up the cheater line then backing off is fair?
The only ruling that was possibly bad in this scenario was Bryson getting to avoid the fringe and rough(I didn't get a good enough look at whether Maltbie was spot on or not-he's not really the type to be overly aggressive normally, but I just didn't have the look Bryson and the official did)


Hitting a ball out of a divot is a skill-see Westwood's second shot) Sure it was unfortunate, but a couple of shorter putts would've rendered that moot. He didn't whine-why should we?
I'd say Bryson probably earned more "fans"(short for fanatic) this week, but it's crystal clear who earned more respect.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirk versus bad luck - should they be equal?
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2021, 09:53:41 AM »
I often wonder when the divot complaining comes up as to why someone has no problem when a ball hits a tree and bounces back into the fairway but has a problem when a ball ends up in a divot.
Rub of the green works both ways! You win some, you lose some.
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirk versus bad luck - should they be equal?
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2021, 10:00:17 AM »
I often wonder when the divot complaining comes up as to why someone has no problem when a ball hits a tree and bounces back into the fairway but has a problem when a ball ends up in a divot.
Rub of the green works both ways! You win some, you lose some.


I like this one because an oft-used argument is "you weren't aiming for the divot."

You weren't aiming for the tree, either, bub.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirk versus bad luck - should they be equal?
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2021, 10:57:43 AM »
The rules might be capricious at times, I don't know how you eliminate it.  I recall Larry Nelson asking for relief because a bleacher was on his direct line to the pin, but he didn't get it.  I can see both sides of that one, since it's a very specific man made element that he felt affected his shot as much as a sprinkler head by the green.


BTW, technically, divot accumulation would be our only true design issue.  I have, from time to time, noticed that a flat area at the base of a hill would collect balls (seems mostly in the case of 2LZ on par 5's) and result in perhaps a 33% chance of playing from a divot.  My first experience was my first hole design under Killian and Nugent, no. 11 at Kemper Lakes.  They had Joe Black (former PGA Tour set up guy) consulting, and it was something he noticed.  Funny thing is, flattening it would have made us remove some trees, so Kemper nixed it.  A few years later, they also found a bunch of carts would be parked, but inadvertently not braked, and rolled down the same hill into the pond.  That got them to change it, and it also turned out that tree removal was key to better turf growth there.


While I like to leave contours natural, I have to admit my tendency is to at least look for areas where the combo of contours will tend to make balls accumulate.  Also, look at the cross slope of fw, making balls accumulate in the rough beside an LZ.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirk versus bad luck - should they be equal?
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2021, 11:55:22 AM »
BTW, technically, divot accumulation would be our only true design issue.  I have, from time to time, noticed that a flat area at the base of a hill would collect balls (seems mostly in the case of 2LZ on par 5's) and result in perhaps a 33% chance of playing from a divot.
Reminds me of the story of James Braid recommending a new course build no bunkers but wait a year and see where all the divot spots accumulate and build the bunkers is such spots. Harry Colt wrote something similar although his time frame was I believe six months.
Atb

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirk versus bad luck - should they be equal?
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2021, 12:28:15 PM »
I'm all for playing it where it lies...if we apply the rule universally and cancel undo all the exceptions that already exist in the rule book for a myriad of other situations.

BDC got to take a free drop, and eventually place his ball at acritical juncture, cause a sprinkler head was nearby that likely didn't even affect  him, yet Lee just had to man up and take his bad luck? 

Lets bring some consistency to the rules, even if that means consistent bad luck for everyone more often...


There WAS consistency in the rules, until pop culture intervened to "simplify" them.
They're not simple, never were, got much, much more controversial(and inconsistent) when they tried to simplify them, and now they are more complicated than ever to interpret them.
I defy any lay person who demanded the rules be simpler to tell me they are, and that they now know and understand them(even us pros don't anymore-and we certainly used to)
The patsy ass rules officials on tour don't help.
They've basically made it come down to the reputation of the player and his later crucifixion or exoneration on Twitter.


The rules will NEVER be fair, they will just be the rules.
Denying anchoring is fair? Using a cheater line is fair? Having your caddie line up the cheater line then backing off is fair?
The only ruling that was possibly bad in this scenario was Bryson getting to avoid the fringe and rough(I didn't get a good enough look at whether Maltbie was spot on or not-he's not really the type to be overly aggressive normally, but I just didn't have the look Bryson and the official did)


Hitting a ball out of a divot is a skill-see Westwood's second shot) Sure it was unfortunate, but a couple of shorter putts would've rendered that moot. He didn't whine-why should we?
I'd say Bryson probably earned more "fans"(short for fanatic) this week, but it's crystal clear who earned more respect.

Jeff,

I'm in complete agreeance with you on this one.  If we're unable to gain consistency in the rules and treat like situations the same, then we should certainly shoot for simplicity and return to the rules of yesteryear and let everyone play it where it lies...

- Hit it on the cart path?  Play it where it lies or take a one shot penalty for a drop
- Hit it next to the bathroom/snack shack?  Play it where it lies or take a penalty for a drop.
- Got a crater of a ball mark on your line to the hole? Play it where it lies and find a different line, or take a penalty drop to move it.
- Ball goes down a gopher hole?  That's a pity, now take your penalty drop or dig it out with a wedge...

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirk versus bad luck - should they be equal?
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2021, 06:24:59 PM »
As I understand it, in her return to tournament golf Anika's ball was up against the gate of a boundary fence and she got an incorrect ruling from an official when he told her she could not open the unlocked gate before hitting her shot.  I know the rules guys will give some type of explanation for this ruling and at the same time justify that you cannot remove a boundary stake and then replace it but that was not my original point/question which dealt with certain situations at the professional level which seem to be inconsistent or unfair.


A chap who seems to have everything figured out profers that those who call for simplicity in the rules really mean that they want to make the game easier.  Nonsense.  John Morrissett didn't spend years of his life trying to condense and simplify the rules motivated by wanting to make golf easier.  When a well-educated and experienced lawyer with decades of golf experience has a hard time understanding and applying the rules, maybe the problem lies in the rules?  (BTW, Jerry, you can remove an OB/boundary stake just as long as you replace it in its original position before you make the stroke).


Laws that are too numerous and extremely hard to understand create confusion, disrespect, and violators.  I think that the 2019 changes were a good start, but much remains to be done if the goal is to get golfers to play by the rules.  The vast majority do not, probably more due to ignorance than convenience.


Not surprisingly, lawyers seem to do very well in the exhausting PGA/USGA rules exam.  One of the top USGA officials from north Texas, an average golfer with little competitive experience, but a +4 as a litigator, got a perfect score of 100 the second time he took the test.  He would say that the rules are well-written and not in need of more than a nip and tuck.


For kicks, reference rules 8.1d (I) and 14.2d.  For the more aggressive, take a stab at rules 9 and 11.  I've talked to members of the USGA Rules Committee who sweat having to take the test every other year or so and score a minimum of 92 to keep their position.  I am talking about experienced, well-educated folks, some who have been to rules school 10 or more times.


The goal (s) of the rules should not be to equalize luck or to make hitting the ball and scoring easier.  Officials, IMO, should focus less on throwing flags and more on facilitating fair play.  In order to do this, I think that the rules should be much fewer in number, written more succinctly by non-lawyers in a way that they are readily and widely understood.  A side benefit might be that fewer rulings are necessary.


Jeff,


Your Larry Nelson story would be different today.  A bleacher would likely be a Temporary Immovable Obstruction (TIO) and line of play relief is granted.  Tom Weiskopf lost an important tournament, maybe the Western at Butler, because a permanent structure (a restroom possibly) in the trees between him and the green forced him to take less club than he needed to clear it.  He came up short as I recall and made bogie or worse.  In his mind, a structure in the way of play is a structure; why the different treatment?  The TIO rule is also controversial as players will use them to their advantage (if the ball would have hit an spectator and stayed in the bleachers at Carnoustie as opposed to hitting metal and bouncing back into the burn, one of golf's great tragedies would not have taken place).       
 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirk versus bad luck - should they be equal?
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2021, 01:48:00 AM »
As I understand it, in her return to tournament golf Anika's ball was up against the gate of a boundary fence and she got an incorrect ruling from an official when he told her she could not open the unlocked gate before hitting her shot.  I know the rules guys will give some type of explanation for this ruling and at the same time justify that you cannot remove a boundary stake and then replace it but that was not my original point/question which dealt with certain situations at the professional level which seem to be inconsistent or unfair.


A chap who seems to have everything figured out profers that those who call for simplicity in the rules really mean that they want to make the game easier.  Nonsense.  John Morrissett didn't spend years of his life trying to condense and simplify the rules motivated by wanting to make golf easier.  When a well-educated and experienced lawyer with decades of golf experience has a hard time understanding and applying the rules, maybe the problem lies in the rules?  (BTW, Jerry, you can remove an OB/boundary stake just as long as you replace it in its original position before you make the stroke).


Laws that are too numerous and extremely hard to understand create confusion, disrespect, and violators.  I think that the 2019 changes were a good start, but much remains to be done if the goal is to get golfers to play by the rules.  The vast majority do not, probably more due to ignorance than convenience.


Not surprisingly, lawyers seem to do very well in the exhausting PGA/USGA rules exam.  One of the top USGA officials from north Texas, an average golfer with little competitive experience, but a +4 as a litigator, got a perfect score of 100 the second time he took the test.  He would say that the rules are well-written and not in need of more than a nip and tuck.


For kicks, reference rules 8.1d (I) and 14.2d.  For the more aggressive, take a stab at rules 9 and 11.  I've talked to members of the USGA Rules Committee who sweat having to take the test every other year or so and score a minimum of 92 to keep their position.  I am talking about experienced, well-educated folks, some who have been to rules school 10 or more times.


The goal (s) of the rules should not be to equalize luck or to make hitting the ball and scoring easier.  Officials, IMO, should focus less on throwing flags and more on facilitating fair play.  In order to do this, I think that the rules should be much fewer in number, written more succinctly by non-lawyers in a way that they are readily and widely understood.  A side benefit might be that fewer rulings are necessary.     

Sweet Lou lays it down!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quirk versus bad luck - should they be equal?
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2021, 11:01:44 AM »
It was great to see Lee Westwood back in the hunt this week and things played out well and JT just outplayed him.  Westwood needed to make a great second shot on 16 but failed to do so which put him in a position which was nearly impossible to overcome for 17 and 18.  JT did get a very fortunate bounce on 18 but that is what I call quirk or the odd bounce which is an essential part of the game. 


We have discussed course conditioning getting out of hand sometimes, especially at US Opens, and it appeared that 17 was getting near to that point and the players recognized that going for the pin made for an incredibly difficult shot bordering on impossible with the wind and the green so firm.