It's the pros... so I'll want to go easy; but still....

[V. Kmetz]

Isn't what just happened on #6 at Bay Hill entirely representative of modern Tour Golf and its competitive interplay with architecture?


BDC hits his "Are You Not Entertained" kill shot on the "Are You Not Entertained Line"...carries 346 entirely across lake, ends up 361 in right rough, 70 yards from pin... has no angle for pin, plays to a safe front edge in 2... easy uphill  hole lag... tap in 4.


Rory hit his "I'm Here Too" bomb  a slightly less aggressive line... nearly as much carry over lake, goes 360 as well, but this leaves 135 from right rough...goes straight at pin, ends up in fair position in front right bunker, blasts to 4 feet...easy 4.


Hoviland takes a line closer to you or I, much further right, less carry...has 215 from fairway, hits a 6-iron to 25 feet in center of green...just misses... tap in 4...


Connors, after a short line drive, hits an indifferent second to a rather poor, short-side, partial (45 yard) pitch position...slides it under beautifully (a shot that causes us Xes)...3.5 feet...straight 4.


By presenting all these variants of how this boomerang lake hole is currently being played, I ask us to recognize:

• It's wonderfully entertaining watching them do it...
• But think about the 99% of us and architecture that satisfies... are those "strategies" available to us?
• Is this "good" architecture objectively?
• What Doak number would this individual hole receive?
• Isn't this one of those instances of nuanced, but desultory, impact of Tour golf on the architecture we have to play?

[Steve Lang]

   VK,


I've only played the Bay Hill knockoff at Tour 18, but as a 99%'er its pretty intimidating seeing water continually on your left.  Over time I've learned my limits of what can be carried on tee shot and how to safely get on in regulation... i wish the long shot strategy was available to me but hey, I've gotten a 4 there too as well.   Doesn't matter how, just how many.


Is it good?  The fact that you're not discussing 3's there, says yes to me or at least no different than any other par 5 played or beat up by the pros these days.


Doak # per hole??  Never seen scale for individual holes...


Desultory?  No more or less to me, as one who pays to play such courses.  I don't begrudge their approaches to play digressing from or establishing new "standard" lines of play

[Peter Pallotta]

VK - I watched that too. I had an odd experience. By the time Conners made his 4, I found myself remembering back to BDC's tee shot and thinking 'That sure was a heck of a lot of swing for a 4!' The phrase 'full of sound and fury and signifying nothing' comes to mind. And it's kind of a shame: I mean, while I'm no big fan of driver technology ruining the game with 350 yard carries, even I know it's a very impressive feat -- and yet it seems so much less striking an achievement when it results in the exact same score as everyone else! The phrase 'the law of diminishing returns' also comes to mind.

It really does show us the modern pro game, in all its essential elements: huge drives, high-flying 215 yard 6 irons, 60 degree wedges, balls that spin a ton off short irons and not at all off woods, greens that are as smooth as silk with putts that always hold their lines, and a massive man-made lake -- and with the tv announcers constantly assuring us that 'Mr. Palmer would've loved what he was seeing today on this glorious Saturday at Bay Hill'.

[Thomas Dai]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fofxhsVWB5A
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

The sad part will be when someone says the green should be bigger on the direct line from the tee, to reward Bryson for hitting such a great shot.   


I've heard that plenty of times from guys going for the green of a par-5 in two, because they feel they're entitled to a good result if they can reach it.  Haven't heard it yet about going for a par-5 in one, but the day is at hand!

[V. Kmetz]

It's really too bad that this hole doesn't appear later in the round; I'd love to see how brave everyone is with a tight leader board, when the water fail is reteed and a 6 is nearly certain.


BDC's "barbaric 'Yawp'" is all well and good fun, but if you can't see the day(s) when he goes Roy McEvoy from such a tee on the same basis, I don't think the whole picture is in view.


that will be fun too, from my chair.

[Philippe Binette]

The hole works... dechambeau takes a big risk... a groove lower and the ball is in the water... then what do you do... re tee on the same Line?


They said it’s an easy birdie... would love to see a playing partner go 4 iron, 7 iron, sw birdie.. would be an easy birdie too

[V. Kmetz]

The hole works... dechambeau takes a big risk... a groove lower and the ball is in the water... then what do you do... re tee on the same Line?

They said it’s an easy birdie... would love to see a playing partner go 4 iron, 7 iron, sw birdie.. would be an easy birdie too

The hole "works"...how?  As a lantern for good everyday architecture? As an entertaining tV spectacle with elite players?  As a demonstration of obliterating the meaning of a 3 shot hole in the face of pro abilities? Are those twains, meeting?  I'm not trampling on what you said, just asking in what way the hole "works"...

[Thomas Dai]

'Hinkle' tree time?
Revise the far buklhead to a graded beach so 'Barnes Wallis' shots could be played?
Grandstands around the tee and green a la the 16th at TPC Scotsdale? Booze included in spectator entrance fee?
Player and caddy only narrow plank walkway across the lake, a la 5th at Sunningdale Old. Only those hitting the green with their first tee shot get to walk across it?
Golf or adapted vaudeville?
atb

[Jeff Schley]

Are you not entertained?

[Jeff Schley]

Sounds like he doesn't care about score, just giving the fans what they want.
"I felt like a kid again, for sure. It was exciting," DeChambeau said after a 68 left him one shot behind 54-hole leader Lee Westwood. "Especially when you pull it off. It was almost like winning a tournament. I got the same chills and feeling when I saw it clear and there was no splash. I gave the fans what they wanted."

[Tommy Williamsen]

SP what is a one on a par five called? Triple eagle? Emperor Penguin?

[JohnVDB]

Victor Perez made an 11 on it yesterday.

[Kalen Braley]

As much as I'm not a fan of BDC and his whole persona, i don't have a problem with this.  Tiger Woods had several emotion inducing moves to whip the crowd into a frenzy after hitting an amazing shot or a hole out at a critical moment..

P.S.  Agree with VK, this would be even better if this came late in the round...

[Tom_Doak]

The hole works... dechambeau takes a big risk... a groove lower and the ball is in the water... then what do you do... re tee on the same Line?

They said it’s an easy birdie... would love to see a playing partner go 4 iron, 7 iron, sw birdie.. would be an easy birdie too

The hole "works"...how?  As a lantern for good everyday architecture? As an entertaining tV spectacle with elite players?  As a demonstration of obliterating the meaning of a 3 shot hole in the face of pro abilities? Are those twains, meeting?  I'm not trampling on what you said, just asking in what way the hole "works"...

I agree with Philippe here.  What was a boring hole has suddenly become must-see TV.  But Bryson took a huge gamble and it didn't really pay a dividend, since lots of guys made birdies without taking on nearly as much risk.  Does that make him think twice about taking that line again?  Or does he actually go for the green today playing in the last group, with first prize on the line?


And, speaking of $$$, all this attention could make it that much more unpopular to roll back the golf ball.  There's a lot more $ than first prize at stake there.

[jeffwarne]

zero problem with it.
PGA Tour is entertainment-it's not like Bay Hill is an architectural gem, and the King was known for his golf course bravado and bold approach.


What is missed in the "more distance" is exciting crowd, is that there is no end to the insatiable appetite for it, and manufacturers, optimizers and players are willing to continue to elevate performance.
Once that green is driven multiple times, there will be a "what now" moment-a driveable par 6?  trees blocking the line? Or a punchbowl green to encourage aces?


Distance is a skill and is relative to other competitors. The scale is out of balance, but the longer this scale is normalized, the bigger the scale will become.


I always laugh when someone says -'it's OK now, but they need to cap it here"
Ship sailed a long time ago.....there's no such thing.


Simply dialing the ball back when appropriate would restore the scale temporarily, but would continue to need to be adjusted-just like every other sport.
It's either that or we adjust our expectations about what skill is, what a great golf course calls for, or how much we should endanger those on other fairways or in nearby off property residences/businesses-as well as how we enjoy the game ourselves, or consume it as entertainment.


That was entertaining, though most of me wonders why he didn't just go right at the green rather than hedge 70 yards right. If it still takes 2 to get there, why take all the risk with pretty much no reward(see everyone else's scores)


The most satisfied I saw anyone on the course yesterday was my 21 year old son who ran up a 212 yard left handed wooden driver he purchased for 50 cents onto the diabolical elevated 16th at Palmetto-his second consecutive day of hitting it inside 12 feet.
He uses the club to fill the gap between his 5 wood and 4 iron........
He had earlier hit his Callaway Rogue driver routinely 280-295 yards, yet the only shot I saw him excited about was the wooden driver shot.


The myth is that if we continue to dumb the game down, more will play.
We're certainly dialed in on step one...

[Peter Pallotta]

'If you build it they will come'

Not a rustic baseball diamond in an Iowa cornfield but an artificial Par 5 in a pristinely manufactured slice of Florida.

If Mr. P wanted the old-time game to come back, he would've built the 8th at Crystal Downs instead.

No one wants to be Shoeless Joe anymore, and no one but us even wants to see him on television.

(Is there a prop bet on BDC actually hitting & holding the green today?)

[Pat Burke]

Sounds like he doesn't care about score, just giving the fans what they want.
"I felt like a kid again, for sure. It was exciting," DeChambeau said after a 68 left him one shot behind 54-hole leader Lee Westwood. "Especially when you pull it off. It was almost like winning a tournament. I got the same chills and feeling when I saw it clear and there was no splash. I gave the fans what they wanted."

Trying to imagine an all time great thinking that way.
Seems they gave the fans what they want with their successes


No disrespect, Bryson is interesting tbh

[V. Kmetz]

In all of this, I'm not taking a position... I'm not a GCA, I'm not designing any courses and I'm just watching on TV... this thread started by just posing the question


"Is this a good representation of what the issue (pro abilities interplay with architecture on TV) is when we speak of technology impacts and everyday architecture."


I'm fine with being entertained...but as a personal matter, I agree with everything Pat said and I do not see an accomplished champion whose head is clearly in that direction.  What will happen when he doesn't take the driver and that line? Will the fans boo him as he draw the iron or hybrid, just like they hiss the fool who doesn't do something "entertaining" at #16 Phoenix? Will those hisses unnerve him and cause him to do something golf bad or behavior bad?  I dunno...but it sure seems like there's a trainwreck there.


As to the strategy-outcome of what it got him...I agree too...it's sorta of stupid to just clear the water only to result in a position that gets you no better score than almost every other pro is making... If there is a "wrongfulness" to it, or "problem" with it, I suppose it comes down to the observation:


The architecture only holds these possibilities for one infinitesimally small class of golfer, as if a baseball field was designed such that the only homerun available was in the last row of the right field upper deck


Great, if we're watching a HR derby of left handed power hitters who hit Reggie Jackson 1971 All Star game-type shots...which I guess we are.

[Greg Clark]

Well Rory showed the risk aspect of going for it today.  Failed twice, then played his third ball the traditional way and "made eagle" with that ball for an all world 7.  Waiting to see what BDC does.

[V. Kmetz]

Lol, all that shit came down to shoot out chip off


So ironically perfect.

[jeffwarne]

If its really all that exciting, and must see TV, why didnt they just make the original carry 300?


A bifurcation/rollback would merely change what was driveable/carryable-or they can play from shorter tees..


Just heard a guy talking about how the only par 5 that didnt bore him at a course I know well was one he recently hit with a 5 iron(about what I lay up with to 100 yards)easily the shittiest hole(modern era redo)on the course.


So he's bored with 3 other pretty good classic par 5s that had good second shot strategy(2 of which I never once reached in my 20s or 30s yet could post 40 [size=78%])[/size]
What changed to make those holes boring for him?
Meanwhile the other features at this course get more "faired up" and "boring"(to me)every redo....

[Craig Sweet]

NBC commentators constant gushing over BDC is sickening....

[jeffwarne]

NBC commentators constant gushing over BDC is sickening....

Slightly less creepy than shadowing with camera and Hicks commenting on Connor's wife.
Then there's the tired  inaccurate proclamation "it's match play" by Zinger.


No it's not,cuz if one makes double and the other makes eagle. it ain't one hole, but rather 4 shots.
Only match play if tied on 18 and well clear of field.

[Marty Bonnar]

I’ll just leave this here:
“Worst bunkers on tour, right there”.
F.