Harbour Town finish vs. Pebble finish

[Greg Smith]

This question/topic could make me look like a bit of a noob, but here goes:


The "early season" PGA tour short course thread has gotten me thinking about both Harbour Town and Pebble lately.  Harbour Town was one of Pete Dye's earlier works.  I am wondering if the finishing three holes at Pebble somehow inspired his finishing three at HT.  Let's look at some commonalities:


16th:  A transitional hole from a very different section of the course; medium-short two-shotter.  Short iron second can be affected by trees, thus making one think of careful placement for the tee shot.  The hole is often overlooked since it precedes two famous finishers, but actually it's rather difficult and might be a lurking disaster that can wreck a round at a critical point.


17th:  A mid-iron to long-iron par 3 heading out to the water, with more water left.  There is some bailout short right though.  Suddenly out in the open, wind comes into play big time.  Spectacular backdrop setting.  Unconventional green with some unconventional bunkering.  A dramatic hole, at a dramatic spot in the round.


18th:  A long closer.  Water on the left must be crossed or at least skirted twice to take the shortest path.  However, there is bailout room to the right -- closer to the OB.  It can be argued this is the most iconic hole on the course.  Unusually, the 18th green is well separated from the 1st tee by a hotel/lodge complex.


I guess the comparison may seem kind of low-brow, and for that I apologize.  But I guess my real question for folks here is:  did anybody who knew Pete Dye (or maybe read some writing of his which I haven't) ever hear him bring this up?  Are there any anecdotes out there that tell the story?  Or maybe Dye's routing was affected by someone else's suggestion (Nicklaus? or the developer?) that may have been enamored with Pebble?


We can talk about the differences between these holes too, but this post is already long.

[Tom_Doak]

Mr. Dye's preference was to have his courses finish with a par-5 16th, par-3 17th, and tough par-4 18th.  It didn't always work out that way, but it was something he aimed for.


However at Harbour Town the question is moot, because the routing plan had actually been done by George Cobb as part of Sea Pines Plantation's master plan, 3-4 years earlier.  They were probably already selling lots around the holes, so Pete couldn't change the routing.


I can tell you Pete was familiar with Pebble Beach, though.  When we were at the TPC at Sawgrass one time, I asked him why he let the setting sun be a factor on the 18th hole [it plays NNW], and he asked me which way the 18th hole at Pebble Beach played?  [Due west.]  And he said, "worse for golfers, but better for TV cameras."

[Tommy Williamsen]

Actually I think it is an interesting comparison. If I had to make three pars, I'd pick playing Pebble. Both number 16s should be parred. If I don't make par there I am upset. The pin placement makes a huge difference on both 17s. I actually find them both difficult to make three. But then you get to 18. The drive at HT is the easiest shot on the hole while the drive on 18 at PB for me is more difficult. The rest of the way PB is not so difficult. HT, on the other hand can be a brute. Depending on the wind I have everything from a 3 wood to a five iron over Calibogue Sound to a small green. 

[Mark_Fine]

Greg,
Tom explained it well.  I played Harbour Town yesterday and while Harbour Town/Pebble might not be a good example though it is as Tommy said an interesting comparison, I have always believed and stated many times that I think architects take ideas from holes/courses they like and use them and/or variations to inspire their own versions.