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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To restore or not restore - Design Intent
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2021, 12:05:20 PM »
Imaginary Conversations Between Green Committee Chair and Potential Restorer

Tom Doak: If the bunker is there, the ODG must have had a good reason to put it there so we are going to leave it there. But this is a helluva site. Interested in a new design?



Ira:


You have a healthy imagination.  I've only done new designs over old ones at clubs that called me specifically with that in mind.


Years ago, perhaps about when Tom posted the 10% idea, I probably countered with an example from the old Woody Allen movie, where they run into the famous producer while in line at the movies, telling him how much they loved this or that and how did he ever come up with such clever ideas. His response was, "I was drunk that day and my assistant really did most of that work." 


Or, as I said earlier, even gca's would love to have a mulligan on some holes they design.


While "experts" study the finished product to the degree that old photos and plans allow, a true study would find out which associate assisted on the project, what days Ross or whoever was actually there, who was the foreman, etc.  As Brad Klein's book pointed out about the Ross schedule, even on projects he visited, he only visited most once or twice.  And after finding out those details, you would still be making an educated guess as to what the intent was.  And, I think you would find things like, "It's Friday afternoon, just finish that bunker up and go home so we don't pay overtime" or some such.  I'm with Mike on this one.  Trying to discern original intent is a very difficult and ultimately impossible task. 


Of course, I don't blame anyone for trying, its sort of a subset of learning design theory.  And, for those courses for whom retro rebranding works financially or just artistically, if you are going that route, I gather you should go all the way in, not just half in. :)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: To restore or not restore - Design Intent
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2021, 12:11:18 PM »
   Shouldn’t the question be: “to improve or not improve?”  A good architect will be a good hire; a bad one not so much.


Yes, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


James Braid was the professional at Walton Heath for fifty years, but Herbert Fowler designed the course.  After Fowler passed, the club made a few changes, and a member asked Braid what he thought of the improvements to the course.  Braid replied, "Do you mean the alterations?"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: To restore or not restore - Design Intent
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2021, 12:29:40 PM »

While "experts" study the finished product to the degree that old photos and plans allow, a true study would find out which associate assisted on the project, what days Ross or whoever was actually there, who was the foreman, etc.  As Brad Klein's book pointed out about the Ross schedule, even on projects he visited, he only visited most once or twice.  And after finding out those details, you would still be making an educated guess as to what the intent was.  And, I think you would find things like, "It's Friday afternoon, just finish that bunker up and go home so we don't pay overtime" or some such.  I'm with Mike on this one.  Trying to discern original intent is a very difficult and ultimately impossible task. 


Of course, I don't blame anyone for trying, its sort of a subset of learning design theory.  And, for those courses for whom retro rebranding works financially or just artistically, if you are going that route, I gather you should go all the way in, not just half in. :)


Jeff:


I guess I should have sent you a copy of GETTING TO 18.


One of the reasons I wrote it was to record some of how my courses came to be, in plan, anyway.  But even writing eight pages about a course and going through the routing process with maps, I don't think anyone who reads it could really take away much about my "design intent" behind many of the holes.  Even the book I'm writing now about Pacific Dunes, which will have 4-6 pages about each hole, may not be enough for that. 


It seems to me that most of the people who want to preserve design intent have a very narrow view of our audience for building golf courses.  A good architect's view is wider.  For every fairway bunker I build, I know there are some players who can probably carry it by fifty yards, and others who will worry about it on their second shot, instead of their drive.  So some bunkers are placed for long hitters, some for shorter hitters, etc.  The whole point of that is so that the course does not become obsolete if people start hitting it twenty yards farther [or shorter] next year.  Different players will tangle with different bunkers, but that's okay.  The holes are designed for everybody.

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To restore or not restore - Design Intent
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2021, 12:53:35 PM »
I thought I read where Bobby Jones wrote down which club and type of shot he envisioned hitting into each green at ANGC.  That information would be make it easier to adjust to the Design Intent - at least from the club number (5 iron), but who knows what MacKenzie was thinking.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To restore or not restore - Design Intent
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2021, 02:49:38 PM »
I thought I read where Bobby Jones wrote down which club and type of shot he envisioned hitting into each green at ANGC.  That information would be make it easier to adjust to the Design Intent - at least from the club number (5 iron), but who knows what MacKenzie was thinking.


And now we know how well that worked in preserving original design intent......



Tom, I purchased Getting to 18, and not even at the industry discount!  Nice book, even with your snarky autograph comment, LOL.  But, I guess you are right about writing down intentions as it regards any future renovation.  Probably won't work.  That said, guys like Ron Whitten have always encouraged all architects to jot down memories about the courses they design.  It's doubtful anyone but golf historians are likely to care, but at least it's there for posterity.  I've only got a few of mine written down so far, plan to do more as I retire.  At the very least, it might save some future version of this discussion group having a melt down a la the Merion threads, and it might be worth it just for that reason alone!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: To restore or not restore - Design Intent
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2021, 03:53:03 PM »
Reading these last points, I realize that I've been thinking about 'design intent' on a shot-specific/hole-by-hole/micro level, and not thinking at all about it on a broader, whole-course/macro level. It's the difference between the game and the experience the architect intended us to have.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To restore or not restore - Design Intent
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2021, 10:43:17 PM »
A concept some architects use is called "turning points”.  Does anyone use them at all here?   I don’t know what they were 80-100 years ago or how many architects used them back then, but I know many used 220 yards 15 or 20 years ago then 240 yards then 260 yards and some now use 280 yards or more.  What do turning points have to do with design intent and does it matter if they have changed over the years or not?