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Jeff Schley

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There are many entry points for the profession as each working GCA today has their own story when you dig into the feature interview section. It provides a great insight into how desire and finding a way to follow your passion appears to be the dominant trait into the profession, not a formal degree at XYZ university.  Having said that, let's discuss some recommendations for a formal degree/training path for aspiring GCA's today.  Some questions from those working in the industry today kindly:

  • What major is desired? Landscape Architecture I assume? If not please expound on others.
  • Is there a need for a Masters Degree in LA?
  • Best university programs in terms of rigor and/or reputation?
  • How important is the university for job placement/career?
  • What type of internships with GCA's are recommended for college programs?
  • Is it possible for break in without a college degree and if so what type of path would that look like?
  • What professional societies are recommended to join/aspire to along one's career path (not looking for controversy here)?

Thank you for the insights.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 11:50:54 PM by Jeff Schley »
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Garland Bayley

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2021, 12:33:52 AM »
It seems like the easiest path is to have the right father! ;)

Does TD have any children to continue the franchise? ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2021, 01:09:38 AM »
It seems like the easiest path is to have the right father! ;)

Does TD have any children to continue the franchise? ;)


I told my son when he was six that I didn't do what my dad did, so he should only follow me if he loved golf - which he doesn't.  None of my wife's kids really took to the game either.  But we have four grandsons now (and a third granddaughter on the way), so maybe one of them will get the bug!


I feel confident that I have trained the next generation of designers, though.  It's just pretty hard to tell which of them will break through, besides the ones who already have.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2021, 01:21:05 AM »
Jeff:


To your opening post, my response is that there is no formal path to follow and that's a good thing because it would produce 100x the number of designers who can succeed.  It's a small business for a reason !


The key to learning is apprenticeship and George Thomas's standard that "you must play golf and love it".  I don't care what degree you have and many of my best guys have had no formal education toward this career (although it's true they didn't have to have it because I did).  However when we were teeming with candidates for our internship it was easier to take candidates more seeiously if they were in Landscape Architecture or turf school - or at least doing something more formal than participating here.


In the end, no degree will guarantee you anything in this business so you should only pursue those majors if they will be part of your backup plan. 😉

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2021, 03:39:26 AM »


The key to learning is apprenticeship and George Thomas's standard that "you must play golf and love it". 


That means Seth Raynor is "the exception that makes the rule".  He was Princeton, Civil Engineer (never earned a degree from Princeton), and never played any golf (certainly before he started his efforts w CBM and on his own later).  Prior career was a a surveyor I believe.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2021, 07:31:59 AM »


The key to learning is apprenticeship and George Thomas's standard that "you must play golf and love it". 


That means Seth Raynor is "the exception that makes the rule".  He was Princeton, Civil Engineer (never earned a degree from Princeton), and never played any golf (certainly before he started his efforts w CBM and on his own later).  Prior career was a a surveyor I believe.


Well he did apprentice with a pretty good designer before going solo!

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2021, 08:12:18 AM »
Just to reiterate, the EIGCA were involved in the MSc programme in golf course architecture that ran at Heriot-Watt Uni in Edinburgh for about ten years.
I’d guess maybe 150 folk went through it. There were 17 or 18 in my year. Maybe 10% of them are still in the business. Some doing very well.
Folk came from a variety of backgrounds. Landscape architects, ex-pro golfers, agronomy guys, etc.
There’s now a part-time Diploma, I believe.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

jeffwarne

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2021, 08:29:00 AM »

The key to learning is apprenticeship and George Thomas's standard that "you must play golf and love it".  I don't care what degree you have 


In the end, no degree will guarantee you anything in this business so you should only pursue those majors if they will be part of your backup plan. 😉


Excellent advice.For any line of work-especially golf.


When I hire assistants, it's a prerequisite that they love golf(I check), and that you want to pay a lot of golf.Golf needs to be your hobby.
Everything that we do on a day to day basis you can learned in a month or two(the teaching takes more time of course), but I can't teach passion to someone who'd rather be somewhere else.


There's really no time for anything else if you want to excel at it given the hours demanded-but it's not a job if you love it-and if you don't, you should do something else.
We do many trips together and all of them are into playing, teaching, history, golf courses.


"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2021, 08:35:27 AM »
Somewhat bizarrely, I remember we had a lecture from a well-known, fairly successful visiting Archie who told us he’d never hit a golf ball in his life.
Still quite flummoxed by that!
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2021, 08:36:04 AM »
Just to reiterate, the EIGCA were involved in the MSc programme in golf course architecture that ran at Heriot-Watt Uni in Edinburgh for about ten years.
I’d guess maybe 150 folk went through it. There were 17 or 18 in my year. Maybe 10% of them are still in the business. Some doing very well.
Folk came from a variety of backgrounds. Landscape architects, ex-pro golfers, agronomy guys, etc.
There’s now a part-time Diploma, I believe.
F.


They went from the MSc to a two year Diploma programme that was set up because they had lost faith in the MSc programme. This ran until 2009 when they scrapped that, primarily because senior EIGCA people were too concerned that it was producing people who could wave an EIGCA flag and take work away from them. But also because work in general had dried up.


Since 2011, there has been a much smaller education programme that takes 4 or 5 people through every couple of years who already have received the backing, mentorship and work experience within an EIGCA members practice.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2021, 10:21:07 AM »
Agree it helps to be a member of the lucky sperm club.  It also helps if you manage to land yourself an apprenticeship with the biggest names in the biz, although it's no guarantee of success going out on your own later.  But most apprenctices seem to go on to similar careers as their mentors.


As to the specific questions, my answers are probably dated because I really haven't hired anyone in years, but this is the advice I often give:


What major is desired? Landscape Architecture I assume? If not please expound on others. I still think this is most valuable, especially if you tailor your classes to gca specifics, including surveying, soils, turf, business writing, aerial photos.  Related summer jobs at golf courses or landscape contractors are also important.[/size]Is there a need for a Masters Degree in LA? No, I believe most of the traditional LA skills are taught as part of a BLA program, and Masters cover some more esoteric topics usually not needed for traditional practices.[/size]Best university programs in terms of rigor and/or reputation? I suspect that changes over time, as faculty, funding, emphasis, etc. change gradually at all universities.  I can tell you that down here in Texas, I have had best luck with Texas A&M aggies, but I truly think that is mostly due to the culture of the university and the fact that they draw high quality applicants.  Some other landscape architecture schools, maybe known more for partying, don't seem to produce as disciplined graduates, as a rule, but there are obviously exceptions.[/size]How important is the university for job placement/career? I suspect it varies depending on what type of firm you are looking at.  One like mine that still puts out plans would obviously look at that LA training, CAD classes, etc.[/size]What type of internships with GCA's are recommended for college programs?  I Answered above, but if you can't find a golf specific internship, other avenues may suffice, i.e., landscape construction or design, work at a garden center, survey crew, golf course maintenance and tell the boos you want to be involved in any construction project that comes up over the summer.  I do tell aspiring gca's that you should try to find an apprentice job in the field you really want to be in.  Specifically, while it would seem a good start in the biz, very few who go work for LUI or Wadsworth transition over to design, they tend to stay stuck in construction, although that wouldn't really stop a really intrepid individual. [/size][/size]Is it possible for break in without a college degree and if so what type of path would that look like?[/color][/size]What professional societies are recommended to join/aspire to along one's career path (not looking for controversy here)?   Most younger designers have no real professional societies to join, maybe ASLA, if a landscape architect.  There are also Facebook groups devoted to golf course construction now.  And, many will go to the annual GCSAA shows and hang around for a few related seminars of interest, but mostly, to interact with as many in the business as possible in hopes of getting a job.  [/size][/size]I also tell aspirants to keep applying.  Maybe other gca's here have a different experience, but I think most small firms can have no openings, and a day later, a few projects appear by complete surprise, and more hands are needed.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brian Ross

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2021, 11:17:23 AM »
My thoughts:

  • What major is desired? Landscape Architecture I assume? If not please expound on others. Landscape Architecture is still the most common path taken but is absolutely not a requirement. There are plenty of great architects practicing today (plus every golden age architect!) who got into GCA by other means. As Jeff B. mentioned, though, it does provide a great foundation for a golf course architect as you will learn about design, soils, grading, and drainage while also becoming proficient with software like AutoCAD, Photoshop, etc. I majored in Landscape Architecture with minors in Horticulture (to gain turf and plant knowledge) and Crop Soils and Environmental Sciences (to gain knowledge in soils) and also made sure to take other classes that I knew would be applicable to being a GCA such as Mapping, GIS, Accounting, etc.
  • Is there a need for a Masters Degree in LA? Definitely not unless you studied something else as an undergraduate and know for certain you want to be a LA if your pursuit of GCA doesn't work out.
  • Best university programs in terms of rigor and/or reputation? There are a lot of great LA programs that can prepare you for a career in GCA but ultimately it's up to you to tailor your university experience to fit your desired career path. Cornell, historically, has been one of the better programs for producing GCAs as they seem to allow the student more freedom to build their own curriculum. My alma mater (Virginia Tech) has produced several GCAs (myself, Andrew Green, Steve Forrest, and Tom Marzolf, among others).
  • How important is the university for job placement/career? Not important, in my opinion.
  • What type of internships with GCA's are recommended for college programs? My advice to young, aspiring GCAs is always the following: Spend one summer working with a golf course agronomy staff, one summer interning with a GCA, one summer building/renovating a golf course, and one summer studying abroad.
  • Is it possible for break in without a college degree and if so what type of path would that look like? Absolutely, though the path may be a bit tougher. Most likely it would involve moving up through the ranks with a golf course contractor and being noticed by a GCA or getting in early with a design-build architect who is on an upward trajectory. Others have made the switch from GCSAA to GCA and others from PGA to GCA. There are no barriers to entry but also (as Tom D. correctly stated) no guarantees either.
  • What professional societies are recommended to join/aspire to along one's career path (not looking for controversy here)? ASGCA, primarily. Joining as an affiliate member of your local GCSAA Chapter and/or supporting your local First Tee (or similar org.) in some way could also apply, I suppose.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 11:21:10 AM by Brian Ross »
Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in.

http://www.rossgolfarchitects.com

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2021, 12:21:42 PM »
If LA, MLA is the best preparation overall, I think you reallyhave to ask yourself if you'd also like to design landscapes for homes and corporate parks. Because if golf design doesn't work out, that's what you'll be doing if you want to use your degree. If no, then I would come at it from a different angle.


I couldn't more strenuously recommend working on a maintenance crew before you commit. The industry is starved for workers and I think it's critical to view the golf course as a system or collection of systems. We know guys like Coore and Dye came into the career after superintendent experiences, but you need not be the head man to understand how a golf course works from parking lot to the 18th hole.


Also, I would apply to Sand Valley for any maintenance position immediately. With two courses in the ground and another on the way, it's probably the best place to gain exposure to established and under-construction golf courses. I would put an experience there miles ahead of any MLA degree.


I think a golf maintenance degree has more favorable optionality and cost/benefit if you know that you want to be involved in golf and nothing else. Programs like UC-Riverside (online) and Rutgers (in-person normally) are extremely time and cost efficient. You can bide your time in a maintenance role and go from grow-in to grow-in and get paid to learn vs. pouring money into the Collegiate-Industrial Complex.


In summary, I think it is critical to establish what your plan b is, and create your path from there.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 05:28:41 PM by Tom Bacsanyi »
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2021, 12:29:25 PM »
Architect, Landscape Architect, Naval Architect, Civil Engineer, Structural Engineer.
Couple of degrees, couple of years professional experience, successful completion of professional examinations, membership of professional association.
Golf Course Architect.
Get a sign made with your name on it.
Just saying.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2021, 12:38:39 PM »
Outside of ex-professional golfers, how many designers/architects successfully made it thru the ranks and established their own successful business...without having a degree?

David_Tepper

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2021, 01:19:05 PM »
Kalen -

Are you asking about Landscape Architecture degrees or any college degree at all?

DT

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2021, 02:28:44 PM »
Outside of ex-professional golfers, how many designers/architects successfully made it thru the ranks and established their own successful business...without having a degree?


There are probably a few, because there are a number who came into golf design via greenkeeping, and therefore probably don't have a degree.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2021, 02:41:35 PM »
Kalen -

Are you asking about Landscape Architecture degrees or any college degree at all?

DT


Any type of post-secondary 4 year degree or equivalent.




Adam Lawrence

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2021, 02:55:42 PM »
Most first degrees in the UK are three years. I'm not sure about the rest of Europe.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2021, 03:20:07 PM »
Most first degrees in the UK are three years. I'm not sure about the rest of Europe.


I'll never forget the fifth semester of my sophomore year....... :D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2021, 03:51:39 PM »
Most first degrees in the UK are three years. I'm not sure about the rest of Europe.

Yea, was thinking American style degrees, which include more GE requirements.  I think Australia also does shorter ones too.

P.S.  I was only asking to see how much of a barrier to entry it is. In my profession, 30 years ago degrees were a lot more scarce, but now in the last 10 years, its difficult to even get your foot in the door for an entry level position without one....

Ben Sims

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2021, 03:53:52 PM »
Cursory read and only Adam Lawrence touched near what I think is the right answer. Turf degree. At a school with solid elective options in LA and business.


But as Tom points out, you better love golf too.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2021, 04:23:35 PM »
Cursory read and only Adam Lawrence touched near what I think is the right answer. Turf degree. At a school with solid elective options in LA and business.

But as Tom points out, you better love golf too.


I think the single best reason for studying turf if you have an ambition to be a GCA is that there are a hell of lot more opportunities in greenkeeping than there are in architecture. If you love golf enough to want to be a golf architect then surely it follows that you'd like to work in the game generally. No degree, no training course, can guarantee you a successful career as a golf architect. Therefore when taking decisions about education and training you would be extremely foolish not to consider what your fallback option is.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2021, 06:33:46 PM »
Seeing what I'm seeing, I think there's an opportunity for a phoenix rebranding of a sort...


The Donald J. Trump School of Golf Course Architecture, Presidential Library & Banquet Hall at the Mar-A-Logo Institute, where GCA aspirants can choose from a number of BS programs concentrations


Cement
Waterfalls
Environmental Ignorance
Civil Litigation.


Once the student chooses a path, and the Venmo of bitcoin reaches Kiev, they can choose from such courses as:


DJT 4511 - Macadam or Marble; Which Is the Line of Charm?
DJT 4516 - How to Fire a Subordinate, Whom You Never Knew That Well to Start With.
DJT 4525 - Lex Luthor, California and an Atomic Bomb - Radical Stories in Routing.
DJT 4537 - Hijack at the Halfway House - How to Route 18 Holes near Your $18 Hot Dogs
DJT 4545 - Seminar with Professor Foster: "Taxidermy Touches You Just Can't Resist"
DJT 4559 - Cancel Culture Can't Catch You - Opportunities for Design in the Former Soviet Union.
DJT 4566 - GCA = Golf Course Appellant - From Zoning Board to the Zupreme Court: A Guide



 
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Formal degree path for aspiring GCA's? University recommendations?
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2021, 10:49:52 PM »

1. Penn State, my alma mater
Pennsylvania State University-Main Campus offers 2 Turf And Turfgrass Management Degree programs. It's a large public university in a small city. In 2015, 29 students graduated in the study area of Turf And Turfgrass Management with students earning 29 Bachelor's degrees.
2. NC State
3. Ohio State
4. Michigan State
5. UMass
6. Georgia
7. Purdue
8. Texas A&M
9. Maryland
10. Nebraska

https://www.universities.com/programs/turf-and-turfgrass-management-degrees
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 11:11:11 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”