[Mike Baillie]

The club I belong to in the Greater Toronto Area is just over 30 years old and embarking on a multi year plan to:
- replace the original one line irrigation system with the double line version
- eliminate several bunkers and rebuild the remaining ones with better drainage and the like
- tree removal
- address drainage and other issues
- open up some green fronts to enable the ground game
Also part of the project is a set of forward tees.

Other back ground info:
- 5600 yards generally what Men in their mid 70s and up play, 5400 yards for Ladies; six pars 3s/pars 4s/par 5s
- just over half of the green sites elevated, six a reasonable amount and five just a tad plus open in front
- a few 120 to 140 yard carries from the ladies tee to the fairway
- membership: virtually no young juniors, almost 15% ladies, just over 10% super senior men, 75% men play from 6,000 to 6,700 yards

A leading Canadian architect has been engaged to some level but I'm not up to speed on either his recommendations or acceptance of them by the 'committee'.  Work will commence this coming September.

Curious as to the thoughts or advice of others in any area but more so on establishing the desired distance and the pros / cons of constructed tee decks for forward tee purposes versus playing from a spot on the fairway.

Thanks in advance.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Starting the forward tee program - Golf Course Industry


This is all I know about the subject......

[Mike Nuzzo]

I hope it is Ian Andrew.
Forward tees: Go with Alice Dye's recommended overall length. Then site the tees in cool spaces for each hole, not just 10 yards in front of the Sr. set. Each tee should be individually designed. Go visit Sebonack for the best designed tee landscapes.
here are some pics http://www.mnuzzo.com/SGC/
Peace

[Tom_Doak]

Generally, don't listen to the women's committee!  Those committees are dominated by the best players at the club and they like it long as it eliminates their competition.


When consulting, I am approached by women members all the time who ask me to make the course shorter.  Whatever you think is short, make it 200 yards shorter than that.  About 10% will accuse you of pandering but the other 90% will prefer it.

[Mark_Fine]

Lots of great advice.  I agree with all of it.  What we often do is set up temporary locations and let the forward tee players use them for a bit and see what feedback you get before building formal tees.  Just make sure your architect chooses the final locations.  If you hired him, you should trust him. 

Forward tees (shorter tees) are becoming more and more popular, we are building lots of them.  I know some here won't like the idea of having extra tees on holes (they only like two maybe three on a hole at most) but I think if they are done well, it is great for golf. 

[MCirba]

A set of forward tees of about 4,200 yards on every golf course, well and thoughtfully placed and adjusted for local factors can do more to grow the game of golf than anything else.


Period.

[Phil Burr]

My mother was a 25 handicapper.  She generally hit the ball solidly; short but straight.  150 was a big knock.  Our home club measured 5400 yards from the forward tees.  The shortest par 4 was 282, with the majority in the 310-330 range.  Would the average 95-shooting male stick with the game if almost every par 4 was out of reach in regulation?  No, they can string together a couple of decent shots and have a crack at a birdie.  My mom, however, rarely hit a par 4 in regulation since most required her to bust a tee shot and follow it up with a career 3 wood.


When I sketched golf courses as a youngster, I set many forward tees at 210-225 yards.  We exalt the short par 4 on this website, but in her 30 years playing the game my mom never experienced a driver-wedge hole.  This is something I would love to see addressed in the placement of forward tees.

[Mike Baillie]

First, thanks for the tips thus far.

Second, responding to Mike N's ask about Ian Andrew plus a small correction for Tom D on page 140 of Volume 3 of the Confidential Guide.

The course is St. Andrew's East.  It was originally designed by Rene Muylaert not Doug Carrick.  In the mid 2000s just before Ian Andrew left Carrick Design he did our master plan then stayed involved with most work done the next few years as he ventured out with his own firm.  Our founder / GM had a long term relationship with Doug and around 2012 hooked up with him and Doug totally changed two greens and surrounding areas to complete things.  The vast majority of changes by both for the better.

Doug has been involved at some level more recently in the current project.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Think about what the USGA did when they held the US Open and US Women's Open on consecutive weeks at #2 in 2014 (think that was the year).  The tees for the women were set so that the women would (on average) hit the same club into par 4's as the men...that is very different than (and MUCH better than) having the men's and women's drives end up in the same place.  That was brilliant on the USGA's part (IMO).


So the forward tees for men should be placed so that a 75 year old's drive leaves that 75 year old with the same club as well.  As someone who 40 years ago used to easily carry drives 250 (with balata and persimmon) and now at age 76 after triple by pass surgery 13 months ago...I can testify to how the game is totally different for us old fXrts.  But when Tom D says take what you think and subtract 200 yards, my sense is that is still too long.  So now... scratch player probably hits their drives about 285, and 7 iron about 175...total of 460?  Well to me a good drive play well hit 7 is about 290!!!!  Do the math...it is shocking how short it should be...and it is wonderful how playing from 5000 yards makes the game just as much (or almost as much) fun as it used to be.


Obviously, total length is also a function of how firm/fast a course is on a day to day basis.

[Tyler Kearns]

Mike,


I completed a forward tee project last year, and used a method similar to what Jeff Brauer posted to determine an appropriate length for the forward tees, ending up at 4,588 yards.  This allows the woman at the club to have 2 sets of tees to play from, and has helped to encourage some of the older men to move up a set because they still aren't playing from the most forward set.  They are also heavily used by the club's junior program.


I have met a lot of resistance when proposing forward tees, always from the better woman players (as Tom mentioned above), but ultimately, with a little education and encouragement the majority of them adopt the new tees and enjoy the game more and play a but quicker.


A lot of the new forward tees end up being in the existing fairways, so I have always opted to keep them very low profile (8-12" above grade max.) and just built them out of tee mix.  By cutting the fairway sod, and flipping it back on after, the new tees blend in seamlessly, and without tee markers, you wouldn't see them from the other tees and barely notice them when walking past.


I think the idea of just placing markers out in the fairway rather than create an actual forward tee is a bit dismissive of the needs of those players needing them.  They should be able to play from a high quality surface like everybody else (level, draining).


Tyler

[Sean_A]

There are big problems with forward tees so forward (when added after design work).

1. The walk is crazy. So much dead ground to cover between green and tee.

2.  Often the tee shots have no interest or challenge. It may as well be a driving range. I think very short hitters want some challenge and the thrill of making a carry now and then.

3.  The tees usually look awful. No care as to blending the tee into natural planting etc.

I understand that it is very difficult to build features into courses for very short tees without interfering with the architecture of the regular tees. We have the same problem with champ tees and regular tees. I think Pinehurst 2 does this well, but it does involve a lot back tee walks... which is the way to do it if a choice must be made. It would take a very unusual design to pull off good tee shots for 7000, 6500, 6000, 5500, 5000 and 4500 yards. I am not convinced it's doable with any hope of being a top class course and walkable. Maybe hither is achievable. I wish many of the current 6000ish courses would look to redesign for shorter tees rather than seek to add yards.

It seems to me that a choice of which few sets of tees the course is optimally designed for must be made. So the spread is maybe 1000 yards. Adding more and more sets of tees doesn't solve the issue, it encourages cart use, which is a short sighted approach to design.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Stand behind greens and look back towards the existing tees.
Do this while ladies, seniors and younger juniors are playing. Note not just where the ladies, seniors and younger juniors tee shots finish but how they play the rest of the hole especially their approach shots. Where to locate shorter tees, and there could be a requirement for more than one on a hole, ought to become apparent as, if the approach shot is analysed, will likely a few other things too such as for example, mowing lines.
Be brave. Be courageous enough to go really short if needed although worth considering is that not every hole may need a shorter tee as ladies par can be adjusted and that lessor length and lower trajectory players like an occasional challenge too, albeit one with an option to avoid.
Atb

[Adam Lawrence]

Sean has a good point about the ruination of the walk. It is necessary to discuss whether it is possible or desirable to have the course play the same (ie the same clubs selection) or even near to it for every golfer.


I remember when I was a junior golfer, playing with my Dad at his club. The second hole was a quite steeply uphill par three of about 110 yards, to a two-tiered green with three deep bunkers cut in front making a carry shot the only option. One day we were playing behind a group of older women who, all of them, played the hole with a driver short of the bunkers and a pitch over them. How can the course possibly play the same for them as it can for a young man who can carry it 300 yards?


I think it is a good intellectual exercise to try to come up with a design solution that makes a course playable if everyone has to use the same tee.

[Mike_Young]

A lot of the new forward tees end up being in the existing fairways, so I have always opted to keep them very low profile (8-12" above grade max.) and just built them out of tee mix.  By cutting the fairway sod, and flipping it back on after, the new tees blend in seamlessly, and without tee markers, you wouldn't see them from the other tees and barely notice them when walking past.


I think the idea of just placing markers out in the fairway rather than create an actual forward tee is a bit dismissive of the needs of those players needing them.  They should be able to play from a high quality surface like everybody else (level, draining).


Tyler

I belong to a club that was built in 1925.  Two years ago the right egos collided with the "forward tee" issue. These guys had read of forward tees and had been to some of the "new classics" .  The board decided to throw them a few crumbs so they gave them the money to place new forward tees.  They did it themselves.  Tees are all over the place, middle of fairways, 100 yards across from cart paths etc.  The people using such tees, and it is not many, travel much further than before and if in a cart, cant drive there in wet conditions..  When I questioned these tees, their defense was the architect told us they were ok after he briefly saw them.  Well, they are not. 
Tyler describes the issues above.  Myself, I am fine if a club wants forward tees but I don't think anyone should really know they are there.  On some of these classics really good players have played into their ninties with balls and clubs that go no where near the distance of today and they still enjoyed the game but then now we have 75 year old ,25 handicappers wanting little forward tee "pimples" in spots that can actually deflect a ball landing in the fairway.  IMHO good forward tees take more planning and discretion than the normal tee. 

[Mark_Fine]

Adding forward tees is one of the best things we can do for this game.  I used to feel three sets of tees or at most four was plenty - I was wrong.  On a course that is 7000 yards for example, six sets of tees or more wouldn't be an issue at all with the shortest being under 4000.  I very much agree with low profile tees placed by an architect so they blend in as well as possible. I am also not against placing markers in the fairways as we do this often for players just learning  and sometimes for turning 18 hole full length courses into par three holes (if and when golfers want to play the course in this fashion).  I don't worry about the added distance between the tees as far as the walk because golfers playing the shorter tees know they have to walk the whole course anyway.  Often it is the back tee players that have the added walk when they have to walk 100 yards backward to the new championship tee that someone added.  I do think the tees should try to work with the architecture but the reality is most forward tees are being added on existing courses (very few new ones being built) so we have to deal with that.  Good reason to have an architect involved. 


I also don't advocate trying to get all players hitting the same shots into the greens - it is a hopeless cause.  You can use the mythical golfer concept that certain level players hit certain distances but that only goes so far.  A pro can hit a 7I 190 yards these days and my wife and many of her playing partners hit it 100 yards less.  Good luck with that.  The overall idea is some players hit it far and some don't and we should be trying to accommodate most of them.  With more tees, more players will move up.  With only three or four tees for example, very few will move up.  We want the game to be fun for all and we also want it to improve pace of play and shorter tees help!!

[Sean_A]

Sean has a good point about the ruination of the walk. It is necessary to discuss whether it is possible or desirable to have the course play the same (ie the same clubs selection) or even near to it for every golfer.


I remember when I was a junior golfer, playing with my Dad at his club. The second hole was a quite steeply uphill par three of about 110 yards, to a two-tiered green with three deep bunkers cut in front making a carry shot the only option. One day we were playing behind a group of older women who, all of them, played the hole with a driver short of the bunkers and a pitch over them. How can the course possibly play the same for them as it can for a young man who can carry it 300 yards?


I think it is a good intellectual exercise to try to come up with a design solution that makes a course playable if everyone has to use the same tee.

Adam


I tend to agree except for the situations where a back tee will add considerable interest for that level of golfer. We seem to be going in the opposite direction instead of studying why the classic courses worked so well, relatively speaking.


Ciao

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

The USGA have a resource management tool. We were a trial site for it and the data it provides is execptional for a number of different aspects of the course. For us the main benefit was to see how different handicappers and ladies vs men handled the course and the traffic patterns across the course. This info made it easier to decide which bunkers were useless and could be removed and which ones to prioritse the other replacement. It also helped show where we need new forward tees and helped in the redesign of the 17th to make it fairer without making it necesarily easier for low handicappers. It is difficult to argue with facts but it is up to the architect to integrate any changes.


https://www.usga.org/articles/2017/03/new-resource-management-technology.html


This powerpoint shows the potential of it and some of the other uses beyond architectural.


https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2016/pace-and-innovation-symposium/Resource-Management-Tool.pdf

[Mark_Fine]

I really don't think this is rocket science.  Take a par four hole with a stream in front of the green requiring a forced carry.  We dealt with one of those at a course in Abbottstown PA where we were adding forward tees.  We had a group of us including the head pro studying all the golf holes including this one.  I asked, how many forward tee players can carry the stream on their second shot.  The head pro said, "only a few".  I said, what if we move the tee up 40 yards how many do you think could carry the stream on their second shot?  He said, "probably about half".  I said, let's start with a temporary tee there and see what golfers think.  As Tom said, some of longer hitters (particularly the two or three who could make the original carry will complain (I believe they did), but we made a ton of other golfers happy.  Once we have some kind of positive consensus on new tee locations we build a formal low profile tee.  The process carries on to the other holes as well.  In some cases we might add multiple forward tees if we deem it is helpful.  Not rocket science.  Again if you are not sure what to do, start with some temporary markers and seek feedback. 


One more thing, at some point you will want to get the course rated and handicapped from those new tees.  Many golfers will want that. 

[Garland Bayley]

...
Would the average 95-shooting male stick with the game if almost every par 4 was out of reach in regulation?  No, they can string together a couple of decent shots and have a crack at a birdie. 
...

This of course is false. This is the view of the diehard medal golfer with some game. The average 95 shooter has a handicap and uses it to compete intensely. Amongst the guys I play with, it is the low handicapper that wants to move forward to preserve his scoring ability, and the 80 year plus 105 shooter that is most adamant about not moving forward.

[Kalen Braley]

I've seen a few comments on how far players must walk to get to the front tees, and its a valid criticism.

However,  i think this site has long been a proponent that the shortest green to tee walks should be to the tee that the most amount of people will use. If 5% of players are going to use the back tees, 10% the up tees, and the other 85% the middle tees, then it seems that's how it should be designed.  And who knows, perhaps a group of people will one day request a course to be build that is intended to be used mostly by "forward tees" golfers and then it would be appropriate to have greens near forward tees, and let everyone else walk back.

P.S. The best example I've seen for forward tees was Stone Eagle, which i thought were terrific. I played with a fellow GCA member and his significant other and still recall many of the forward tee locations she used and thinking that looks like an interesting tee box to play from...

[jeffwarne]

This is a very good discussion.
There are sound reasons for a very short set of tees, as well as a long one.


Where you lose me is the idea that every hole needs to have a set of tees for every player to "have the same club in"
Players at any club will have a carry distance of somewhere between 60 yards and 180 yards for their 7 iron.
That 180 guy will suck that 7 iron back on many/most greens, and that 60 yard carry person's ball will roll another 10-20 yards.
Factor  in scale and consider the shorter player is still only 60 yards away(i.e. they could top it on) and the other is 180 yards-same club, much wider dispersion and variety of shots.


I'm all for that 4500 yard set, and I'm all for that 7000 yard set, and even a 6000 yard set.Within those boundaries I'm confident that there's a ton of great mix and match courses.
Want 6500? alternate between the 6 and 7000 yard tees.
Want 5300? alternate between the 4500 and 6000.


Thoughtful mixing and matching can save a ton of $, a lot of walking and a lot of eyesores-in addition to being far more social.
A 290 yard hole can be both entertaining and fun for the bomber as well as the 150 driver, if designed with both in mind-even playing from the same pad.It can also be far more social.
Then maybe on the next hole they are separated by a 200 yard walk for an ideal landform/forward tee placement-i.e. a 480 par 4 and a 280 yard par 4.
Average out the test rather than trying to replicate it-using the land the best way possible rather than forcing tees proportionately where they don't fit or cost $ to fit.
Then you'd see more tee usage on most holes rather than few ever playing all the way back-or forward


The point is I believe it is a fool's errand to try to design every single hole to have the same challenge for every mythical player.
Not every hole can proportionately fair, just try to balance it out and make the holes fun from every tee.
A 135 yard par 3 that well designed and open in front(seriously, who thinks a front bunker actually intimidates a scratch player-it actually frames the shot and reduces the chance the ball will run away)  can easily accommodate every level of player, and I promise you that senior or woman is better with her 7 wood than he/she is with her 6 iron(if she even owns one).


You can quite easily entertain every level of player with 2-3 sets on every hole(and even just 1 with enough room for turf rotation), assuming you have a bit of imagination.
Of course this would be easier if your longest hitting Jr/college player didn't hit it 320, but rather 275...but I digress...


No two people are alike and eventually you would need 30 sets of tees per hole if you really wanted everyone to play holes the same way. 


Palmetto did a wonderful job with this for years with a few hidden back tees. Now the tee police have caught up with them and you see a mottled mess of blocks yards apart because like most places, senior men won't play the forward tees.
Having less sets, not more, and not designating gender for tees, would help and get people used to mixing it up.


And here come the handicap, CR,slope police.....you know the same ones who hit mulligans, drop for lost balls, pick up 4 footers,"Put me down for a 5"...
No doubt they're all turf sales people.

[Sean_A]

I've seen a few comments on how far players must walk to get to the front tees, and its a valid criticism.

However,  i think this site has long been a proponent that the shortest green to tee walks should be to the tee that the most amount of people will use. If 5% of players are going to use the back tees, 10% the up tees, and the other 85% the middle tees, then it seems that's how it should be designed.  And who knows, perhaps a group of people will one day request a course to be build that is intended to be used mostly by "forward tees" golfers and then it would be appropriate to have greens near forward tees, and let everyone else walk back.

P.S. The best example I've seen for forward tees was Stone Eagle, which i thought were terrific. I played with a fellow GCA member and his significant other and still recall many of the forward tee locations she used and thinking that looks like an interesting tee box to play from...

I hear what you are saying. However, if golf is hoping to recruit more of the single biggest market for golf, women, perhaps designing with women more in mind is a good approach. Making most women walk endless yards to tees doesn't strike me as very clever.

Ciao

[Mike_Young]

This entire obsession with so many tees is all about stroke play....two 85 year old dudes can play the golf course from the same tees for their entire life and enjoy it...if they are playing each other...

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
I agree with much of what you said but disagree that less tees is ok. The back tee players might want to mix it up and play forward but usually not the other way around. 

Sean,
I am confused about the long walk to the forward tees?  How many times is that walk not toward the next hole/green vs back tees that are often long walks away from it.  The forward tee players are always walking forward.  What is a few more yards to walk forward along the way.  I often play the back tees and I usually have a hike backwards to get to my tee.  It is almost always away from the direction of play.


Mike,
They can but often that is because they have no other choice.  When we have built shorter tees, seniors flock to them!


Just don’t call them ladies tees 


And one more point the only reason the pros can sometimes go play a 480 yard par four from 280 yards is because “the tee” is there 

[Mike_Young]

I'm 68 and we play the back tees at our course...even some of the guys in their 60's that shoot 95...adjustments are made and we go play....I go by whatever Kenny Powers says...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De7rbB2bteE

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