Top U.S. Course With Least Good Site?

[archie_struthers]

 


Jim your point is well taken with Oakmont. Just thinking the natural fall of the land gave you a lot more to work with than Chicago Golf. Certainly could be argued given how good that golf course is !

[Tom_Doak]

Every time I see someone post that Chicago Golf Club is flat, I make a mental note that their memory is not to be trusted.  The contours are not dramatic but it isn't close to flat.


Of course most of these courses aren't flat, that makes it pretty hard to get to a 9.


My stock answer for this question is Oakmont for all the reasons Jimmy Muratt said, but actually Garden City Golf Club was probably the least interesting ground.  It's just better soils than Oakmont!

[archie_struthers]

 


My memory, oh my. So i went online and did a little research. Seemed that TD was correct in that they "purchased the 200 acre farmland for it's rolling hills covered with native grasses". So I will disqualify myself from this discussion. Tough to get old

[Kalen Braley]

Given today is a Google Earth day...

If I figured out the routing correctly:
- The lowest point is an elevation of 726, 2/3rds of the way down the fairway on #1.
- The highest point is 766 feet on the 7th green.

So 40 feet of elevation differential from top to bottom is at least moderately rolling. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Kalen, thanks for checking it out. Maybe I was still in shock from playing the tips at Butler 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Goat Hill in Oceanside, CA ?

[Tim_Weiman]

In my opinion, Oakmont is the correct answer.   The land is essentially heavy soiled farmland with a major highway running through it.  The architecture and conditioning create a playing experience that is hard to equal anywhere.   I think Oakmont is a "10", and that's incredible considering the land and soils that it's built on.

Jimmy,


No disrespect, but I don’t see how you could think Oakmont is competitive with Chicago Golf Club. After playing the first three holes, it is clear beyond any doubt that Oakmont loses this match.


As other have said, Winged Foot is right there at the top with Chicago.

[Tim_Weiman]

Every time I see someone post that Chicago Golf Club is flat, I make a mental note that their memory is not to be trusted.  The contours are not dramatic but it isn't close to flat.


Of course most of these courses aren't flat, that makes it pretty hard to get to a 9.


My stock answer for this question is Oakmont for all the reasons Jimmy Muratt said, but actually Garden City Golf Club was probably the least interesting ground.  It's just better soils than Oakmont!

Tom,


Wow! We have never disagreed so much. My impression walking Chicago (thanks to you!) is that everything good about the course is the architecture. I feel the same about Winged Foot in contrast to its neighbor Quaker Ridge.


Oakmont? For starters, growing up at Pelham Country Club means that the highway divide means nothing to me, though I would have liked to see the course before I-95 was built. Then, too, the soil issue didn’t impact my thinking at all as it may have when Fownes built the country. Instead, Oakmont’s topography creates lots of interest on most, if not on all holes. Conditioning aside, that as what makes Oakmont for me.

[Chris Mavros]

Out of those listed and based on what I know and have played, Garden City came to mind.  One of the things that impressed me was how brilliant the course is despite the mild terrain.   

[Jeff Schley]

Piping Rock front 9 for sure, the back does have some up and down, but pretty tame. Front reminds me of Chicago with openness. Back gets framed with some trees and perimeter IIRC. Not talking bad course, we are only talking land to be clear. Great templates.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Piping Rock front 9 for sure, the back does have some up and down, but pretty tame. Front reminds me of Chicago with openness. Back gets framed with some trees and perimeter IIRC. Not talking bad course, we are only talking land to be clear. Great templates.

Comparison of Piping Rock w Garden City in this regard is very interesting.  First they are geographically near one another (about 9-10 miles apart as the crow flies) yet they are very dissimilar in terms of terrain and topography.  During last ice age the glaciers stopped moving south when they got about half way across Long Island.  As a result, Westchester, New England, and the northern part of LI are very hilly and loaded with rock outcroppings that were dragged down from up north by the glaciers.  But the southern half of LI tends to be very very flat with high sand content in the soil due to the proximity to the Atlantic Ocean.  So Piping has the advantage of much better terrain but probably worse soil (without deep digging and clearing) and Garden City just the opposite.

Tom D--how did you find the soil at Piping during your restoration?  Easy or tough to work with?

[Anthony Gholz]

In my opinion, Oakmont is the correct answer.   The land is essentially heavy soiled farmland with a major highway running through it.  The architecture and conditioning create a playing experience that is hard to equal anywhere.   I think Oakmont is a "10", and that's incredible considering the land and soils that it's built on.

Jimmy:


Based on the time of design, however, the "major highway" was a railroad.  I think given our love of certain links courses, having a railroad would make it a great site.   


Otherwise I believe Oakmont has great land movement as does "flat" Chicago.
Anthony

[Jimmy Muratt]

In my opinion, Oakmont is the correct answer.   The land is essentially heavy soiled farmland with a major highway running through it.  The architecture and conditioning create a playing experience that is hard to equal anywhere.   I think Oakmont is a "10", and that's incredible considering the land and soils that it's built on.

Jimmy:

Based on the time of design, however, the "major highway" was a railroad.  I think given our love of certain links courses, having a railroad would make it a great site.   

Otherwise I believe Oakmont has great land movement as does "flat" Chicago.
Anthony

Anthony,

Oakmont certainly has nice movement throughout the property but it's no different than countless other tracts of farmland throughout the country.   And, it's built on heavy soils that aren't conducive to the firm & fast conditions that Oakmont consistently provides.

As I stated earlier, in my opinion Oakmont is a "10".   The finished product far exceeds the quality of the raw site.  It may have better land than some of the other courses that have been mentioned but it's also the best golf course that has been mentioned.   I can't think of another "10" that isn't either built on sand or in a seaside location.   

[Tim_Weiman]

In my opinion, Oakmont is the correct answer.   The land is essentially heavy soiled farmland with a major highway running through it.  The architecture and conditioning create a playing experience that is hard to equal anywhere.   I think Oakmont is a "10", and that's incredible considering the land and soils that it's built on.

Tony,


A railroad didn’t persuade me to dislike Prestwick, though I was a bit terrified on the first tee. If I remember correctly, our friend Matt Fulton may have sliced his tee shot onto the tracks.


Anyway, a railroad before the highway was built applies to more than just Oakmont. Pelham Country Club was also built when there was a railroad but no highway. The subsequent construction of the New England Thruway did more to change the design of Pelham than the Interstate did with Oakmont, if I’m not mistaken.


But, that aside, there is the question of soil conditions verses topography. Though just a golf architecture junkie and certainly lacking the expertise of professionals in the business, it seems to me that Oakmont was blessed with enough topography that whatever disadvantage the soils presented didn’t prohibit something special being built.

I can’t help but wonder: maybe the soils weren’t such a big deal to push Oakmont to the top of this interesting list.


Based on the time of design, however, the "major highway" was a railroad.  I think given our love of certain links courses, having a railroad would make it a great site.   


Otherwise I believe Oakmont has great land movement as does "flat" Chicago.
Anthony

[corey miller]

Though It may be only a "7" (though it is a solid "9" to play) I always marvel at how ridiculously good Rockaway Hunting is on a flat property prone to flooding at what appears to be sea level throughout.


Jim Wagner did some crazy good work here.   

[Brett Hochstein]

I'd need to pore through his book a bit, but didn't George Thomas hate the site at Riviera and offer a ton of backhanded comments on it before starting the work?  I theorize that is why it turned out with so many varied, creative architectural solutions--he felt the need to inject some interest into it compared to the more naturally tumbling sites over at LACC and Bel-Air.  It's probably also why it is my slight favorite of the 3, despite LA being much better presented and truer to original character.


My first thoughts on this subject were Riviera, Chicago, Garden City, Oakmont, and Seminole.  I personally love the setting at Chicago though, and it is definitely not flat, as Tom says.  Garden City has the soil going for it.  Riviera is actually a sneaky cool site with the original wash-ways and the deceptive tilt of the whole valley.  I haven't seen Oakmont or Seminole, but after learning more about it on recent podcasts, it kind of sounds like the "winner."  Yes it has the sand ridges, which are cool, but everything else in between sounds like a featureless quagmire of high groundwater and heavier soils.  Makes it much more impressive how Ross pulled off that design.

[JESII]

Brett, the Seminole argument is really tough. The fact of the matter is, the site does have those two ridge lines.


The only holes not utilizing one of them are; 1, 8, 9, 10, 15 and 16. Those holes are interesting and cool and demonstrate Ross' skills, but the other 12 are generally spectacular, maybe 7 and 14 the least so but...


In truth, it sounds like Seminole is one of the masterful engineering successes in GCA that I can think of. The fact that the course is a 9 or 10 is almost secondary.