[Kyle Harris]

Kyle

I haven't read Ran's criteria for inclusion in the Custodian list for a while but IIRC it's largely about the club as much as the course and respecting certain core values. Allowing players to play music thereby impinging on other players enjoyment seems like a straight forward red card to me.

Niall

Unrepaired ballmarks do *far more* to ruin an experience for other golfers than music from other fairways. Should people that don't repair ballmarks be similarly ostracized, as well as their courses?

Especially since a reasonable fix for the music is to reduce the volume.

[Niall C]

Kyle

I'm not going to belittle the blight of unrepaired pitch marks or un-raked bunkers and where you have a members club and that is an ongoing problem then yes, I'd very much question them being custodians of the game assuming you take custodianship to mean respecting traditional values etc.

There is no tradition to playing music on the course as it appears to me to be an entirely new phenomenon. But in the same way it is a basic courtesy to repair your pitch mark, replace your divots and rake bunkers, I'd have thought it self-evident that playing music at whatever level, if it can be heard by others, is inconsiderate. Likewise needless shouting and talking loudly so as to impinge on others enjoyment.

Niall   

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle

I'm not going to belittle the blight of unrepaired pitch marks or un-raked bunkers and where you have a members club and that is an ongoing problem then yes, I'd very much question them being custodians of the game assuming you take custodianship to mean respecting traditional values etc.

There is no tradition to playing music on the course as it appears to me to be an entirely new phenomenon. But in the same way it is a basic courtesy to repair your pitch mark, replace your divots and rake bunkers, I'd have thought it self-evident that playing music at whatever level, if it can be heard by others, is inconsiderate. Likewise needless shouting and talking loudly so as to impinge on others enjoyment.

Niall

There is also almost no tradition of having "traditionally" marginalized groups on the golf course either or wearing shorts.


Traditions change and I am not offended if I should happen to wander within earshot of another group. As with all things, there's a smell test here and more often than not such incidents are accidental instead of deliberately negligent.

The point is as to whether or not it is the club/course that should regulate such behavior so stringently or whether or not the golfers should do so. I would suggest that a club has bigger priorities for ensuring behavior doesn't affect other golfers' enjoyment than music playing.

Coincidentally, one of the candidates I'd have for "custodians" of the game has music playing over the putting green/practice area. The culture there is lovely, many walk, and the regulars care for the course.

[Tommy Williamsen]

“We need to celebrate the places that make you itch to play.” Ran
Boy, is that true. There are obviously more than 147+1 courses in the world that fall into that category. I used to belong to some of them, listed and unlisted. I not only wanted friends to play the course but experience the totality of the club. Whenever I would bring someone to either Musgrove Mill or Four Streams, they wanted to eat lunch and head out again. Both were a combination of fun and challenge. The caddie program at Four Streams was exceptional and I knew who to get that would make the trip around the course more fun for my friends. I would tell guests that the only thing better than the course at Four Streams was the food.

The same is true for Hidden Creek. I invited a couple from Baltusrol for two days. After 54 holes they wanted to join. We, indeed, need to celebrate those places that make us want to play.

[Thomas Dai]

When initially published the prologue piece accompanying the original 147 listing was a delightful explanatory piece. I have tried to find it but failed. I hope it’s still available to read someone herein. If it is and someone should know where perhaps they’d be good enough to post a link.
Atb

[Niall C]

Kyle

Maybe we have different ideas about the traditions and customs but it seems to me the very word custodian suggests preserving and highlighting what is best about the game. We'll have different views on what that is and at the end of the day it is Ran's view that counts as its his list, however for me it is about respecting the tradition of the game; the spirit of golfing companionship and respect for others as exemplified by golf etiquette. Others may quite like a bit of music on the course but for me it just impinges on others enjoyment and is selfish.

Niall

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not sure I agree that fixing a few ball marks or divots has a bigger impact on the golf experience.

I'd much rather spend a few seconds here and there to repair a few ball marks or pour sand in a divot...over being subjected to annoying music for hours on end...

[Kyle Harris]

Ran's own published standards in his bullet point list toward the end of the header make no indication of the culture of the club but rather in how one can play golf at the club. Which of those bullet point applies specifically to music?

This all seems a bit capricious. There is a difference between playing a game and being a part of a club.

[Kalen Braley]

Kyle,

I understand your point.  But if I'm bearing down to make a 10 footer to save par and I hear Ozzy blaring from the next hole how does that not fit into the "playing the game" category. I'd much rather hear my opponent chanting "Noonan" in the background over that..

P.S.  Music in the locker room or grill after the round, I would consider that to be in the "Club Culture" category.

[Brock Lynch]

The Cradle has loud music and plenty of unrepaired ball marks...and neither of those do anything to ruin the experience.


P.S.


I would also like to know why Ran removed courses from and added courses to the list.

[Thomas Dai]

Any ProShops selling earplugs?
Hand signals between playing partners to signify scores on holes? Might be risky and open to wrong interpretation however when signalling a hole-in-one or a birdie-2.
 
Atb

[Richard Fisher]

To Ally's question, Harlech was one. He wrote, tearfully.

[Kalen Braley]

I would also like to know why Ran removed courses from and added courses to the list.

Ran explained why on the GCA 2021 thread:

"Rather than add a single course to get to 148, I made more changes. There are several hundred courses/clubs out there that fit my criteria as a Custodian. At one addition a year, many would never get recognized, so the list turned over about 10%. "

[Niall C]

Ran's own published standards in his bullet point list toward the end of the header make no indication of the culture of the club but rather in how one can play golf at the club. Which of those bullet point applies specifically to music?

This all seems a bit capricious. There is a difference between playing a game and being a part of a club.

I dare say none of the bullet points say you can't play football on the 18th green but would you ?

[Sean_A]

Music? Generally it's a bad idea on courses because music is obviously a very personal choice. Should I be in the mood to hear music on a golf course, I don't trust the tastes of most people. That said, there is cart golf on cheap courses. In these rare incidents I don't care that much. Have a few beers and listen to whatever crap country music is playing and be thankful it isn't speed metal.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Music? Generally it's a bad idea on courses because music is obviously a very personal choice. Should I be in the mood to hear music on a golf course, I don't trust the tastes of most people. That said, there is cart golf on cheap courses. In these rare incidents I don't care that much. Have a few beers and listen to whatever crap country music is playing and be thankful it isn't speed metal.

Ciao

And therein lies the rub of it Sean, music is highly preferential.  For me I'd much rather be deluged by Speed metal than to have to listen to even one note of "crap country music".

P.S.  For the life of me I don't understand how this has somehow become OK on golf courses. At least if someone is wearing a fugly outfit I can turn away. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Unrepaired ballmarks do *far more* to ruin an experience for other golfers than music from other fairways.

Not sure I agree. You can fix the ball marks before you putt. You can't often "fix" the issue with the music.

If I understand you, though, you're trying to apply Ran's standards here, though, so that's not necessarily the same as what I'm probably thinking about.

[Brian Finn]

The place that came to mind immediately when reviewing the list below is Rolling Green in Philadelphia. It not only satisfies, but exceeds the standards of each of the eight criteria.

A course that provides engaging puzzles to solve beats one which does not.
A course where the ball is encouraged to run beats one where it is not.
A course where you can carry your bag at anytime beats one where you cannot.
A course where you can play quickly while walking, beats one where you cannot.
A course that you can enjoy at all ages beats one where you cannot.
A course with understated maintenance practices beats one with conspicuous green keeping.
A club that emphasizes the simple game of golf beats one which pursues the trappings of status.
A course you want to play again and again beats one you only wish to play annually.

[Kyle Harris]

Unrepaired ballmarks do *far more* to ruin an experience for other golfers than music from other fairways.

Not sure I agree. You can fix the ball marks before you putt. You can't often "fix" the issue with the music.

If I understand you, though, you're trying to apply Ran's standards here, though, so that's not necessarily the same as what I'm probably thinking about.

Someone else can take care of my damage for me (but ONLY if it inconveniences them) is at the very core of what is off about golf today.

Fix your damn pitch mark.


Playing football on the 18th green is contrary to the purpose of that green.

Music is a sound no more or less equal to conversation. If it's loud enough to be heard from a reasonable distance it's likely too loud. If you wander into a conversation you would have no right to determine the subject, tone, or intent of that conversation.

All person-generated sounds on the golf course should be treating equally.

[Sean_A]

All person-generated sounds on the golf course should be treating equally.


Why?

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

All person-generated sounds on the golf course should be treating equally.


Why?

Ciao

Because that's equal treatment? Do you not hold conversation to the same standard as music? As cart noise? If you can hear it from two fairways away it's likely too loud. If you walk up to it while the group in front of you is also waiting to tee off would you expect that group to stop a conversation you may find offensive? What's the difference?

The courtesies for all person-generated noise seem to be the same, so, why does music elicit such vehement opinions?

[Sean_A]

All person-generated sounds on the golf course should be treating equally.

Why?

Ciao

Because that's equal treatment? Do you not hold conversation to the same standard as music? As cart noise? If you can hear it from two fairways away it's likely too loud. If you walk up to it while the group in front of you is also waiting to tee off would you expect that group to stop a conversation you may find offensive? What's the difference?

The courtesies for all person-generated noise seem to be the same, so, why does music elicit such vehement opinions?

I don't find music on a golf course offensive, or at least haven't to date. That is too strong, I would say its annoying unless it happens to be music I enjoy.  Even then, if I am paying serious money to play golf I don't want music of any kind from any direction. Just like I don't want to listen to guys talk on the phone or have the game interrupted by long walks. That stuff interupts the flow and experience of the game. On a $25 cart course out for jollies I am much less inclined to worry about the experience and flow of the game. I am already in a cart so whatever.   

Music isn't necessary for golf. Talking is an essential element of the game for most players. I do not equate friendly conversation with music for the reasons outlined above. All noise isn't equal. Most people aren't in the habit of playing music in public areas/areas where there are many other people...its one reason why headphones exist.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Music is a tricky issue.


I personally like it, though I've never been one to bring the music myself-it's something I never think of.But when others have it I enjoy it, if nothing else I find out how narrow and frozen in time my taste is, occasionally certain genres don't click with me, bit I can't say I would use the word offensive.
When playing in a group with music I am always amazed how clear the quality is within a group, yet 50 yards away not audible most of the time.




We allow it on the course, on the range only with personal headsets as it's likely you will have company who may not share your opinion or genre.


Occasionally, I have to draw the line between music that is simply too loud and intervene, or someone who is going out of their way to have a bug up their arse to complain about hearing any music on the course.Wind and holes which intertwine in a routing can compound this equation.
This makes my job a bit more difficult and I occasionally have to remind both parties of our policy of tolerance, but also but of not interfering upon the enjoyment of others. The two can co-exist with a reasonable volume and/or an occasional well timed volume adjustment just to be sure when approaching less isolated areas of the course.


Clearly others have different opinions on this board, and for those who go so far as to find an allowance or lack of anything offensive, it is up to them to seek out facilities that best suit their preferences, or when visiting a facility with a different policy to embrace the moment to enjoy something different.
I for one would never choose a facility based on its music policy, but I find the facilities I tend to choose for other reasons, almost always have a music friendly, but use common sense policy.


I'm a bit bemused to find out a course didn't make the list due to an ill timed musical blast, but then it's not my list.

[Kyle Harris]

All person-generated sounds on the golf course should be treating equally.

Why?

Ciao

Because that's equal treatment? Do you not hold conversation to the same standard as music? As cart noise? If you can hear it from two fairways away it's likely too loud. If you walk up to it while the group in front of you is also waiting to tee off would you expect that group to stop a conversation you may find offensive? What's the difference?

The courtesies for all person-generated noise seem to be the same, so, why does music elicit such vehement opinions?

I don't find music on a golf course offensive, or at least haven't to date. That is too strong, I would say its annoying unless it happens to be music I enjoy.  Even then, if I am paying serious money to play golf I don't want music of any kind from any direction. Just like I don't want to listen to guys talk on the phone or have the game interrupted by long walks. That stuff interupts the flow and experience of the game. On a $25 cart course out for jollies I am much less inclined to worry about the experience and flow of the game. I am already in a cart so whatever.   

Music isn't necessary for golf. Talking is an essential element of the game for most players. I do not equate friendly conversation with music for the reasons outlined above. All noise isn't equal. Most people aren't in the habit of playing music in public areas/areas where there are many other people...its one reason why headphones exist.

Ciao

And my preferences which are different from yours are equal to your preferences which are different from mine.


Therefore all the noise is equal.

Jeff Warne gets it. As per usual.

[Sean_A]

All person-generated sounds on the golf course should be treating equally.

Why?

Ciao

Because that's equal treatment? Do you not hold conversation to the same standard as music? As cart noise? If you can hear it from two fairways away it's likely too loud. If you walk up to it while the group in front of you is also waiting to tee off would you expect that group to stop a conversation you may find offensive? What's the difference?

The courtesies for all person-generated noise seem to be the same, so, why does music elicit such vehement opinions?

I don't find music on a golf course offensive, or at least haven't to date. That is too strong, I would say its annoying unless it happens to be music I enjoy.  Even then, if I am paying serious money to play golf I don't want music of any kind from any direction. Just like I don't want to listen to guys talk on the phone or have the game interrupted by long walks. That stuff interupts the flow and experience of the game. On a $25 cart course out for jollies I am much less inclined to worry about the experience and flow of the game. I am already in a cart so whatever.   

Music isn't necessary for golf. Talking is an essential element of the game for most players. I do not equate friendly conversation with music for the reasons outlined above. All noise isn't equal. Most people aren't in the habit of playing music in public areas/areas where there are many other people...its one reason why headphones exist.

Ciao

And my preferences which are different from yours are equal to your preferences which are different from mine.


Therefore all the noise is equal.

Jeff Warne gets it. As per usual.

If Jeff Warne gets it, so do I.  He has an opinion and acts on that opinion. I have an opinion and act on it. Just saying you think all noise is equal doesn't make it so, that is if equal even matters. But hey, I ain't gonna change your opinion and my opinion on the matter has already changed. All is good. I am lucky "music in public is my right" hasn't hit the shores of the UK yet. Shit, its very rare to see people drink alcohol while playing golf! It is likely that neither are anywhere near common in the UK because of a lack of cart culture. As this changes, it will be interesting to see if the next generation fully embrace carts, drinking and music....golf as an extension of a bbq? Anyhow, Ran cited music as criteria for 147+. That wouldn't have occured to me.


Ciao

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