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Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2021, 08:14:54 PM »
I have a good friend who was/is a good NCAA BB coach and actually won the NCAA back in the 90's.  He still says if you rely on the three pointer he will beat you most of the time.  It's no different than a guy who relies 5 footers for par....   The thing not mentioned that I think has made a huge difference is the football receiver glove.  It allows a QB to give more lead and it allows what were once uncatchable passes to be completions thus upping the percentage of completions today vs the past...


The three point analogy would make sense if the guy who made a five footer for par was only charged for 1/2 a stroke. A three assigns a different point value for the WAY you score, and a three has been proven at the higher levels to be no way 50% more difficult, and in many cases equally or less difficult.


The wide receiver gloves is balanced out by the fact that defenders are almost always hitting the receiver just before the ball gets there, and are stunned when what they are now coached to do, is called interference. Kind've like holding, you could call it on nearly every play.
Before gloves,we had pine tar or spray stickum, but our quarterbacks hated it so we rarely used it.
I remember balls sticking to pants leg where stickum had been liberally applied.
you realize last year 2019-2020 was the lowest overall 3 point percentage made in NCAA at around 34%...using the three point play to open up down low definitely aids but inside the paint shots have a much higher percentage...
The gloves I have seen recently are much stickier than the stickum I remember...we never saw that many one handed catches...it's still impressive even w gloves...
Nope..friend is Jim Harrick  BUT he coached at Morningside High and I think Scott went to Highschool there...  Myself I love 90's BB and still would prefer to watch the high post offense and someone who knows how to run it...a good three point shooter opens up the down under shot in such....and how guys see the three point shot is often determined by whether they feel college ball is a defensive game or an offensive game...JMHO
I thinkw e can agree that NBA threes are almost "defense free".
Jim H came to Pepperdine from asst coach at UCLA my freshman year there in 1979. Best basketball the Waves ever played under him. Pep came a free-throw away from ending NC State's[size=78%] dream in 1983 NCAA tourney. Harrick actually had the Waves ranked in the top 20. He was great at stashing city kids with low grades in JC's to get their grades up and then bringing them to Malibu.[/size]
Jim actually came out to some practices with the golf team a few times. Great guy but not much of a golfer. 8)
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2021, 09:47:59 PM »
Two great posts SL.
20 years has tipped the scales Im afraid.
A bit like asking you or I to go back to a gutty-which we've never played.


Sometimes when one's head is buried in sand...they fall asleep

Require max two piece. Balls vary by the softness of the cover. They want distance, play a ball with a surlyn cover. Want control, play a urethane cover. I don't think that is like going back to the gutty. More like going back to wound balata balls, but with better quality.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2021, 12:17:37 AM »
With the NBA, I have the same question that I have with the PGA.  If offense is so fun to watch, then why are the ratings so much lower than they used to be?  The 80s and 90s basketball that everyone claims was so ugly had the best ratings ever. 




Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2021, 01:50:35 AM »
Not only age, but the way a game-sport changes over time:

I read a stat today about pro basketball, the NBA: so far this season, the average number of 3-point shots attempted per game is about 80 (almost half of all field goal attempts). Twenty years ago, that number was 14. In the early 1990s, the average number of 3 point attempts per game was 5.

From 5 three pointers per game to almost 80: what once was *an* aspect/dimension of the game has now become, gradually but before our eyes, *the* dimension of the game, ie the dominant one. That probably explains why many of us now find the pro game much less interesting to watch than we once did -- it has almost literally become 'one dimensional'.
[/quote


Of course, there are always early adopters.  In 1989, when the three pointer was still relatively new to college basketball, a last minute schedule change sent the Division 2 UC Riverside Highlanders to Hawaii to face fourth ranked Iowa in the Chaminade Christmas Tournament.  They went 21-36 from behind the line to stun the highly ranked Hawkeyes in arguably the greatest sports moment in UC Riverside history.  Six years later, when I was senior, they'd get to the national championship game, and would find a way to blow a 20 point lead to Southern Indiana and perpetual disgrace Bruce Pearl.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2021, 04:09:38 AM »
Not only age, but the way a game-sport changes over time:

I read a stat today about pro basketball, the NBA: so far this season, the average number of 3-point shots attempted per game is about 80 (almost half of all field goal attempts). Twenty years ago, that number was 14. In the early 1990s, the average number of 3 point attempts per game was 5.

From 5 three pointers per game to almost 80: what once was *an* aspect/dimension of the game has now become, gradually but before our eyes, *the* dimension of the game, ie the dominant one. That probably explains why many of us now find the pro game much less interesting to watch than we once did -- it has almost literally become 'one dimensional'.
[/quote


Of course, there are always early adopters.  In 1989, when the three pointer was still relatively new to college basketball, a last minute schedule change sent the Division 2 UC Riverside Highlanders to Hawaii to face fourth ranked Iowa in the Chaminade Christmas Tournament.  They went 21-36 from behind the line to stun the highly ranked Hawkeyes in arguably the greatest sports moment in UC Riverside history.  Six years later, when I was senior, they'd get to the national championship game, and would find a way to blow a 20 point lead to Southern Indiana and perpetual disgrace Bruce Pearl.
Well a common link in that story is that Bruce Pearl was involved in both as he was an assistant to Dr. Tom Davis until 92 and was at Iowa when UC Riverside beat them in Hawaii and then moved onto S Indiana to avenge it.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2021, 06:26:25 AM »



Of course, there are always early adopters.  In 1989, when the three pointer was still relatively new to college basketball, a last minute schedule change sent the Division 2 UC Riverside Highlanders to Hawaii to face fourth ranked Iowa in the Chaminade Christmas Tournament.  They went 21-36 from behind the line to stun the highly ranked Hawkeyes in arguably the greatest sports moment in UC Riverside history.  Six years later, when I was senior, they'd get to the national championship game, and would find a way to blow a 20 point lead to Southern Indiana and perpetual disgrace Bruce Pearl.
Well a common link in that story is that Bruce Pearl was involved in both as he was an assistant to Dr. Tom Davis until 92 and was at Iowa when UC Riverside beat them in Hawaii and then moved onto S Indiana to avenge it.



I played for Tom Davis for two years as a walk-on at BC and Bruce Pearl was our Manager. Now Bruce was two years older than me, and he was a walk-on too before I arrived. Bruce wanted to coach so he shifted to Manager and ran all the stats for Tom Davis, and we were innovative in that we kept stats in practice. The key was the 3 point shot that Dave Gavitt had brought into the Big East. However, it was too far out and nobody practiced the 3 point shot in high school, so it was NOT a huge part of the game in those early years. It was used more at the end of the game to try and catch up. Again, it was too early as players had not practiced it.


When Tom Davis left BC for Stanford, he took Bruce with him as Bruce graduated that Spring.


Fast forward, Bruce Pearl took Tom Davis' zone offense, which naturally features kick outs to 2, 3, and 4 shooters and Auburn often leads the SEC in 3 point shooting:


https://www.secsports.com/article/30452336/auburn-ties-sec-3-point-record-win-vs-south-alabama


Bruce is smart, yes I have some great Bruce Pearl stories, and no I will only tell them on a fancy first tee like Seminole!!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 06:28:25 AM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2021, 09:14:19 AM »
Dr. Tom was an innovator and somewhat unique back in that day as he coached, successfully all of the country. From Boston to Stanford to Iowa he moved around the country from coast to coast. He used to live in the last house the north side of Melrose right on Finkbine GC.  I think he still lives there.

The only story about Bruce Pearl that won't leave any fan of the Univ of Illinois is two words: Deon Thomas!
If you know, you know.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 09:17:15 AM by Jeff Schley »
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2021, 09:27:08 AM »
There's a Q&A with Kevin Garnett in yesterday's NYT Magazine which speaks to some of this discussion. I have no idea how to link it here.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2021, 10:48:33 AM »
Some good basketball discussion. A couple of points.


In terms of shot distribution.  The three point shot has predominantly replaced the long 2 point jump shot.


I have a hard time believing the modern game is less aesthetically pleasing for some people because players are shooting jumpshots from behind the three point line instead of slightly in front of it. 


The biggest change in the three point era is the premium it has played on skill, passing, teamwork and player movement.  It's a far superior product if you like skilful basketball and teamwork.

Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2021, 11:53:30 AM »
Some good basketball discussion. A couple of points.


In terms of shot distribution.  The three point shot has predominantly replaced the long 2 point jump shot.


I have a hard time believing the modern game is less aesthetically pleasing for some people because players are shooting jumpshots from behind the three point line instead of slightly in front of it. 


The biggest change in the three point era is the premium it has played on skill, passing, teamwork and player movement.  It's a far superior product if you like skilful basketball and teamwork.

You must be a Tom Fazio fan. All about aesthetics. I am more interested in strategy. It takes more strategy to get the high percentage two point attempt than to get the high percentage three point attempt.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2021, 12:33:54 PM »

The golf version of that is that bogeys and double bogeys rarely go viral [with the exception of Jean Van de Velde, but that was a triple on the 72nd hole of a major].  Birdies and eagles are all that I ever see on the highlight reels.

Golf started its demise when medal play became dominant.


This is an interesting suggestion in the context of basketball and the 3 pt shot.


Shooting a 3 is, on balance, better than shooting a 2 pt jumper outside about 5 feet. This is just statistically true, at least at the pro level, when compared apples to apples (a wide open 15 footer might be worth more expected points than a double-teamed 3, but all things being equal 3 is worth more than 2).


NBA upsets happen, but they're not all that common. It's a high-sample-size sport (teams score 120 points per game vs a low-sample-size sport like soccer, where teams score once or twice a game - so an incremental-by-possession statistical advantage becomes significant by the end of the game), and the highest stakes games are part of a 7 game series which further reduces volatility.


Of course, the NCAA tournament is famous for upsets. Slower paced, lower scoring games help mitigate the possession-by-possession statistical advantage of the best teams, and all it takes to knock out a better opponent is one great 40 minutes. It's inconceivable that the 64th best pro team on earth would beat the Clippers in a 7 game series, but every now and then a Florida Gulf Coast might just make a Sweet 16 run in the NCAA.


That "smaller sample size" nature of NCAA basketball also makes the 3 point shot less valuable in a way. Because an NBA team can survive an inevitable bad shooting night in the playoffs, but an NCAA team probably can't.


Golf tournaments are almost exclusively played with a huge sample size. When you contest an event over 4 rounds and ~270 strokes, you create a certain predictability in the outcome. If big hitters have an incremental advantage on damn near every shot, it compounds over a 4 round medal play tournament in a way that's more significant than what happens in an individual match.


The best players will always win more often than the worst players. And golf is a naturally volatile game anyways - even the greatest players still win well under 50% of the time. But the version of golf we're sold most frequently is less volatile in structure than it could be. If you like the Zack Johnson's of the world, you'd probably see them win a little more often if match play was more prevalent.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 12:36:28 PM by Jason Thurman »
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2021, 12:41:31 PM »
While I respect the skill of the deep shooters, it is NOT team basketball.  I didn't watch teh NBA for years after Jordan retired and I think 3-4 years ago I watched a Warriors game for like a quarter and watched Curry or Thompson jack it up from 30 thinking is the shot clock running out or the end of the quarter?  It is like no moves, or trying to involve any post play or pick and rolls and just jack it. Not enjoyable and for the former athletes that can appreciate how the game was played successfully for decades almost an insult. Selfish play.
Where is Gene Hackman when you need him? How many times are we gonna pass before we shoot?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Peter Pallotta

Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2021, 12:58:26 PM »
Magic grabbing the rebound and leading the fast break down the court, for a no-look pass to James Worthy or a pick-and-roll with AC Green or, if there was nothing, settling into the half court offence and working it around until he could feed it to Kareem.
Ah, memories...light the corners of my mind...misty coloured memories...of the way we were...

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2021, 12:59:30 PM »
Yep... those incredibly selfish and void-of-strategy Warriors teams:











I grew up in Kentucky and have loved the NBA since I was 7... if I had a nickel for every time I've heard somebody say "I don't watch the NBA because <utter nonsense ending with something about how Hoosiers was the last time basketball was good>," I'd have joined Cypress Point and bought Dubs season tix by now.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2021, 01:25:45 PM »
..
I grew up in Kentucky and have loved the NBA since I was 7... if I had a nickel for every time I've heard somebody say "I don't watch the NBA because <utter nonsense ending with something about how Hoosiers was the last time basketball was good>," I'd have joined Cypress Point and bought Dubs season tix by now.

Well at least you have high standards for golf courses.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2021, 01:37:46 PM »
Jeff,

You really missed out.  As a Golden State fan, I've watched hundreds of GS games in the last 6 years, and during their peak run they were the epitome of an unselfish team.  Their passing was un-matched and defensive-switching nothing short of brilliant.  Even on the offensive side, they always made sure to go to the hot hand if they were having an off night.

But yes when you have 3 of the best shooters in the league on one team, and they dish the rock unselfishly... you're going to make it hard on everyone...and they did!  ;)

P.S.  Garland, I'm a bit confused by your less strategy comment.  With teams spreading the floor so much, you have to do far more on the defensive side of the floor, other than just stacking a few big trees within 10-15 feet of the basket.  And offensively as teams use more real estate, it opens up far more permutations and combinations of plays that normally would not be very feasible. Bigs can't be just lane cloggers and rebounders anymore, they have to do everything including guarding other bigs out on the 3 point line.

Coaching the old game was checkers, now its chess...

P.S.  During the Warriors 5 year run with 5 NBA finals in a row, and 3 championships...they were #1 in the league all 5 years for Team Assists per game, and none of them was even close.  Very selfish team indeed!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 01:47:26 PM by Kalen Braley »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2021, 02:10:40 PM »
...
Coaching the old game was checkers, now its chess...
...

Exactly what level of basketball playing did you reach to lead you to make such an uninformed comment?

Which type of golf do you prefer? Medal or match?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2021, 02:45:15 PM »
...
Coaching the old game was checkers, now its chess...
...

Exactly what level of basketball playing did you reach to lead you to make such an uninformed comment?

Which type of golf do you prefer? Medal or match?


Garland is about ready to posterize you Kalen watch out and dotn get tea bagged when he throws down.   ;D


I fully admit I could be wrong about the warriors passing it was the shot selection that stood out.  In any other era they would have been yanked for jacking it up from 30.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2021, 03:39:31 PM »
...
Coaching the old game was checkers, now its chess...
...

Exactly what level of basketball playing did you reach to lead you to make such an uninformed comment?



Garland,

You've fallen into the old trap of "top notch golfers make the best instructors and/or golf course designers".  I'm guessing the last time either of us played competitive basketball was in the 80s, so if you're basing it off that, please make a better effort next time!  ;)

P.S.  Medal vs Match play falls in the category of "it depends".  Individual matches or a few guys looking for a fun weekend, match play of course.  But for a 2 day local weekend tourney with 50+ players, good luck running a match-play to determine that...

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2021, 03:46:42 PM »

One other concept to think about is shot distribution parity.  In theory, if you're averaging 1.1 points per 2-point attempt and you're averaging 1.3 points per 3-point attempt, it means that you should be taking more 3-point attempts.  i.e. you could force the action a little more there until the expected value from both zones is equal. 

If we look at the Lakers this year, the stats would say that they are shooting too many threes to be optimal. 
If you ignore fouls-
they are averaging 1.078 points per 3-point attempt
and they are averaging 1.175 points per 2-point attempt

Since foul drawing on 3-point attempts is so low (under 3% of all attempts), the expected value of these 2-pointers needs to be increased by all of the free throws that they produce.  That requires more data, but all NBA teams have that and they know the answer to this. 

Meanwhile, the Jazz are averaging 1.18 points per 3-point attempt while they are only averaging 1.06 on 2-point attempts.  In their case, they might want to shoot even more, even though they lead the league in attempts already. 



Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2021, 04:09:06 PM »

You've fallen into the old trap of "top notch golfers make the best instructors and/or golf course designers".  I'm guessing the last time either of us played competitive basketball was in the 80s, so if you're basing it off that, please make a better effort next time!  ;)


Has nothing to do with top notch players! So there is no trap! Perhaps I should rephrase the question. Who did you learn your basketball strategy from, and what level of play was that at?



P.S.  Medal vs Match play falls in the category of "it depends".  Individual matches or a few guys looking for a fun weekend, match play of course.  But for a 2 day local weekend tourney with 50+ players, good luck running a match-play to determine that...

64 players, 4 flights, 2 nine hole matches each day. Winners play winners, losers play losers. Woe be to the golfers (methinks Kalen might lose the first two ;D ) that lose all four matches.
Willing to play 27 holes a day? 128 players, 4 flights, or 128 players 2 flights.
Willing to play 36 holes a day? 256 players possible, but may overwhelm the course. So make appropriate adjustments in flighting as seen above.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2021, 04:36:41 PM »
I knew Dr. Tom Davis when I was a kid and he was the coach at Lafayette College. Gary Williams who ended up having success with Maryland was his assistant at the time. They were great to me (my dad was a professor at the college) and would let me watch practice and hang around a little. Roy Chipman who had success at Pitt followed Davis at Lafayette. They had a real good program back then. During that time Hank Slider used to give lessons to NBA players in Lafayette's gym back then and I had the chance to lurk around a couple of those as well. Also got to meet Pete Carrill a couple of times - after growing up in Bethlehem he played at Lafayette under Butch Van Breda Kolff and then coached at Lehigh University before his Princeton gig. Good memories.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2021, 11:30:09 PM »
Huh...I just figured the 3 point shot was easier to learn than actually learning how to play center, for example.  Players coming out of college after one year haven't learned how to play their position yet. Foot work, positioning, using their body...that takes a few years of coaching. Running up the court and firing a trey? Easy...not much involved with that. 
We are no longer a country of laws.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2021, 02:26:49 AM »

64 players, 4 flights, 2 nine hole matches each day. Winners play winners, losers play losers. Woe be to the golfers (methinks Kalen might lose the first two ;D ) that lose all four matches.
Willing to play 27 holes a day? 128 players, 4 flights, or 128 players 2 flights.
Willing to play 36 holes a day? 256 players possible, but may overwhelm the course. So make appropriate adjustments in flighting as seen above.


36 hole days were a lot easier to pull off when courses were 6,200 yards and a round took 2.5 hours. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2021, 03:14:52 AM »
Don't all sports have their own particular hangups? I can't watch basketball, never have enjoyed the game for a few reasons. But as a hockey fan I have put up with fighting even though I despise it. It is what it is.

Ciao
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