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John Kavanaugh

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Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2021, 11:29:53 AM »

I remember balls sticking to pants leg where stickum had been liberally applied.


Thank you.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2021, 11:30:14 AM »
I have a good friend who was/is a good NCAA BB coach and actually won the NCAA back in the 90's.  He still says if you rely on the three pointer he will beat you most of the time.  It's no different than a guy who relies 5 footers for par....   The thing not mentioned that I think has made a huge difference is the football receiver glove.  It allows a QB to give more lead and it allows what were once uncatchable passes to be completions thus upping the percentage of completions today vs the past...


The three point analogy would make sense if the guy who made a five footer for par was only charged for 1/2 a stroke. A three assigns a different point value for the WAY you score, and a three has been proven at the higher levels to be no way 50% more difficult, and in many cases equally or less difficult.


The wide receiver gloves is balanced out by the fact that defenders are almost always hitting the receiver just before the ball gets there, and are stunned when what they are now coached to do, is called interference. Kind've like holding, you could call it on nearly every play.
Before gloves,we had pine tar or spray stickum, but our quarterbacks hated it so we rarely used it.
I remember balls sticking to pants leg where stickum had been liberally applied.
you realize last year 2019-2020 was the lowest overall 3 point percentage made in NCAA at around 34%...using the three point play to open up down low definitely aids but inside the paint shots have a much higher percentage...
The gloves I have seen recently are much stickier than the stickum I remember...we never saw that many one handed catches...it's still impressive even w gloves...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2021, 11:44:34 AM »

I have a good friend who was/is a good NCAA BB coach and actually won the NCAA back in the 90's.  He still says if you rely on the three pointer he will beat you most of the time.  It's no different than a guy who relies 5 footers for par....

Is your friend Byron Scott?

I hope 3 people get that joke.

I do worry about the games I love becoming "solved games" - that we're heading for a place where there's 1 correct way to win at golf, basketball, and tic-tac-toe.

The thing I always come back to with basketball, though, is that strategy changes over time. The NBA shoots more 3s now for a number of reasons. Silliest is that it took coaches 20+ years to figure out that an extra point was better. But I cut my teeth on 90s basketball. I know damn good and well that each team had, at most, 3 guys who could make a shot from outside 17 feet.

And the league was full of scary post behemoths and slashers who forced gameplay to the interior.

And the most dominant player of all-time was destroying everyone with isos and midrange jumpers, so ya know, it's not crazy that we all thought that was "how basketball is supposed to be played"


And now things have moved to the perimeter. I like the balance it creates: spread the floor and give your lead ball handler space to attack, get the defense out of position, and then find the open shot. But sometimes it's too much bombing, and too much flailing for fouls.

So you could move the line back. I'm not opposed to that.

As an alternative, though, you could just wait for everybody to react to Embiid, Jokic, Ayton, Zion, and Giannis, among others - the guys who are exploiting a new gap in team defense. Because with everybody playing small guys with perimeter skills, there's now efficiency lurking at the rim for teams with personnel to exploit it.

I have no problem with shooting being important - it's a core skill! If the Rockets had won a title I'd probably feel differently. But look closely, and you'll see the last two titles have been won by teams that exploited major opportunity INSIDE the arc to set themselves above the competition. You'll also notice more "unsolvable" players now... like, seriously, how do you guard Jokic or Embiid when they can do literally everything? But also, have you watched those guys? Jokic is literally the most entertaining basketball player I've ever watched. He does not make me long to watch Terrell Brandon's Cavs again.

Getting back to golf... on one hand, I admire that the average player today has such a well-rounded skillset. There aren't many Freddie Jacobson's left - the guys who are great at one thing but sorta shitty at other stuff. On the other hand, I want there to still be Corey Pavins - the guys who are great at everything except power. And I want it to still be possible for a great player to have a 25+ year career, rather than to just swing all-out for 7-8 years until his body gives out.

But I don't know, maybe that's just not the game anymore. Maybe there's just a natural sweet spot in the evolution of a game, where it starts in a primitive and void-of-strategy state before gradually reaching a golden era where the game is well-played by strong practitioners who still have a heart for the "spirit of the game," with that era ending once a DeChambeau or Harden shows up to be like "Won't I beat everybody else if I just <get jacked and hit it really far> <start whacking my arms into everybody so that I get fouled a lot> <fill in blank for other sports>."


Personally, I favor narrowing the width of the lane after reading Kirk Goldsberry's "Sprawball." Create favorable conditions for inside play by making it easier to post-up without catching a 3-seconds call. And I also think it's time we start experimenting with doglegs and narrow targets again.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2021, 11:49:17 AM »
I have a good friend who was/is a good NCAA BB coach and actually won the NCAA back in the 90's.  He still says if you rely on the three pointer he will beat you most of the time.  It's no different than a guy who relies 5 footers for par....   The thing not mentioned that I think has made a huge difference is the football receiver glove.  It allows a QB to give more lead and it allows what were once uncatchable passes to be completions thus upping the percentage of completions today vs the past...


The three point analogy would make sense if the guy who made a five footer for par was only charged for 1/2 a stroke. A three assigns a different point value for the WAY you score, and a three has been proven at the higher levels to be no way 50% more difficult, and in many cases equally or less difficult.


The wide receiver gloves is balanced out by the fact that defenders are almost always hitting the receiver just before the ball gets there, and are stunned when what they are now coached to do, is called interference. Kind've like holding, you could call it on nearly every play.
Before gloves,we had pine tar or spray stickum, but our quarterbacks hated it so we rarely used it.
I remember balls sticking to pants leg where stickum had been liberally applied.
you realize last year 2019-2020 was the lowest overall 3 point percentage made in NCAA at around 34%...using the three point play to open up down low definitely aids but inside the paint shots have a much higher percentage...
The gloves I have seen recently are much stickier than the stickum I remember...we never saw that many one handed catches...it's still impressive even w gloves...


yes 34% is about right for NCAA, but you'd have to shoot 51% on that off balance 12 footer(which is likely better defended to make it a shot worth taking.
and the NCAA is large-not exactly the elite-NBA at further back makes more, tipping the scales.
odds of being defended are also lower from 3.
The high % made of 2's is padded by dunks, layups, the same as the stats that talk about make % inside 10 feet include 3 inch tap ins, or coaches who say 40x percent of games is putts, which counts putts with 100% make % inside a foot.


A team that relies on threes can be wildly inconsistent however, and can hurt in a championship one and done game.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2021, 11:49:28 AM »
As a lifelong fan of Basketball, (I started playing in the 70s) you can count me as one who far prefers today's game, especially over the physical slugfests that infected the game in the 90s.  If you watch old game film, basketball was a mostly hands off game with incidental contact for decades before the late 80s teams like Detroit transformed it into a full contact sport.  Thankfully the rules makers returned some balance like eliminating the hand-check, even if there is still far more contact than there originally was.

As a counter point to the previous comments, the 3 point line has made the game far more enjoyable to watch as teams must now spread the floor and the interior has become far more accessible for options a-plenty with either finishing at the basket, pulling up for a 15 foot J, kicking back out, alley oops, etc. So its no surprise the game has become far more athletic with the big bruising oversize players basically extinct in the NBA, as quickness, speed, the ability to pass and shoot from almost anywhere are far more valuable now.

I also don't agree that mid-range shots are a thing of the past, even if 15-18 foot attempts are down.  Players like Chris Paul, Kawai Leonard, and Kevin Durant continue to feast on and kill teams with shots in this range.

P.S.  My primary beef with the modern game is the lack of enforcing the travel.  Its already difficult to defend top notch players like Lebron and Harden, and when you give em that extra step (yes Hardens step back is also a travel) its nearly impossible.





Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2021, 11:58:22 AM »
I have a good friend who was/is a good NCAA BB coach and actually won the NCAA back in the 90's.  He still says if you rely on the three pointer he will beat you most of the time.  It's no different than a guy who relies 5 footers for par....   The thing not mentioned that I think has made a huge difference is the football receiver glove.  It allows a QB to give more lead and it allows what were once uncatchable passes to be completions thus upping the percentage of completions today vs the past...


The three point analogy would make sense if the guy who made a five footer for par was only charged for 1/2 a stroke. A three assigns a different point value for the WAY you score, and a three has been proven at the higher levels to be no way 50% more difficult, and in many cases equally or less difficult.


The wide receiver gloves is balanced out by the fact that defenders are almost always hitting the receiver just before the ball gets there, and are stunned when what they are now coached to do, is called interference. Kind've like holding, you could call it on nearly every play.
Before gloves,we had pine tar or spray stickum, but our quarterbacks hated it so we rarely used it.
I remember balls sticking to pants leg where stickum had been liberally applied.
you realize last year 2019-2020 was the lowest overall 3 point percentage made in NCAA at around 34%...using the three point play to open up down low definitely aids but inside the paint shots have a much higher percentage...
The gloves I have seen recently are much stickier than the stickum I remember...we never saw that many one handed catches...it's still impressive even w gloves...


yes 34% is about right for NCAA, but you'd have to shoot 51% on that off balance 12 footer(which is likely better defended to make it a shot worth taking.
and the NCAA is large-not exactly the elite-NBA at further back makes more, tipping the scales.
odds of being defended are also lower from 3.
The high % made of 2's is padded by dunks, layups, the same as the stats that talk about make % inside 10 feet include 3 inch tap ins, or coaches who say 40x percent of games is putts, which counts putts with 100% make % inside a foot.


A team that relies on threes can be wildly inconsistent however, and can hurt in a championship one and done game.


+1


It's interesting to watch lower leagues in most sports because strategy becomes far more volatile in the absence of hyperskill. At the pro level it's easy to talk 3s, layups, and FTs. In the NCAA, it's not that simple because guys are just so much less skilled. You can't count on 3s and FTs when you can't count on guys to hit them.


Sorta like club level golf. The game is all about bomb and gouge, the pros tell me. But I still look up to a bunch of old guys on the leaderboard, after looking back 60 yards to see them hitting their approach all round long.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2021, 11:59:58 AM »
Old legs shoot better than they defend.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2021, 12:08:27 PM »
I have a good friend who was/is a good NCAA BB coach and actually won the NCAA back in the 90's.  He still says if you rely on the three pointer he will beat you most of the time.  It's no different than a guy who relies 5 footers for par....   The thing not mentioned that I think has made a huge difference is the football receiver glove.  It allows a QB to give more lead and it allows what were once uncatchable passes to be completions thus upping the percentage of completions today vs the past...


The three point analogy would make sense if the guy who made a five footer for par was only charged for 1/2 a stroke. A three assigns a different point value for the WAY you score, and a three has been proven at the higher levels to be no way 50% more difficult, and in many cases equally or less difficult.


The wide receiver gloves is balanced out by the fact that defenders are almost always hitting the receiver just before the ball gets there, and are stunned when what they are now coached to do, is called interference. Kind've like holding, you could call it on nearly every play.
Before gloves,we had pine tar or spray stickum, but our quarterbacks hated it so we rarely used it.
I remember balls sticking to pants leg where stickum had been liberally applied.
you realize last year 2019-2020 was the lowest overall 3 point percentage made in NCAA at around 34%...using the three point play to open up down low definitely aids but inside the paint shots have a much higher percentage...
The gloves I have seen recently are much stickier than the stickum I remember...we never saw that many one handed catches...it's still impressive even w gloves...
Nope..friend is Jim Harrick  BUT he coached at Morningside High and I think Scott went to Highschool there...  Myself I love 90's BB and still would prefer to watch the high post offense and someone who knows how to run it...a good three point shooter opens up the down under shot in such....and how guys see the three point shot is often determined by whether they feel college ball is a defensive game or an offensive game...JMHO
I thinkw e can agree that NBA threes are almost "defense free". 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2021, 12:09:58 PM »
Thanks, more very good posts.

Re: golf

At the back of my mind starting this thread was the USGA-R&A distance report and consultation process

Obviously that process is going to involve a lot of different voices/forces and dynamics

But I can't see the voice that says 'hey, it snuck up on us, the data-driven game that golf has become' being a very prominent one or even being heard

And yet isn't it what the 'debate' is really about? To use Joe's question again -- about making sure that the 'art' of golf survives the 'science'?


Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2021, 12:45:39 PM »

Nope..friend is Jim Harrick  BUT he coached at Morningside High and I think Scott went to Highschool there...  Myself I love 90's BB and still would prefer to watch the high post offense and someone who knows how to run it...a good three point shooter opens up the down under shot in such....and how guys see the three point shot is often determined by whether they feel college ball is a defensive game or an offensive game...JMHO
I thinkw e can agree that NBA threes are almost "defense free".

Damn. Very cool. I loved Tyus Edney. And that Rhode Island team that made the tourney run!

I'm assuming you've never watched Jokic. Seriously, humor me and watch 5 minutes of a Nuggets game if you see one on and have a minute. You'll have a good time I think.

I think NBA defensive effort is at a high in my lifetime the last few years, outside the ASG. And scheme sophistication is way increased. But offenses are devastating. You just inevitably will send help and leave a shooter eventually, at least a dozen or so times a game. To me, that's good offense.

But it's exacerbated by what Kalen mentions... shit like Harden's mastery of exploiting the rules with admittedly incredible acts of skill. He's Brysonesque.

Guarding him is like guarding against routine 370 yard drives. It probably warrants changes. But I gotta admit that I think gather steps and bombed drivers are sorta fun sometimes too.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2021, 12:53:45 PM »
College BB was ruined IMO when they passed the one and done rule. No cohesive programs and building year to year like 80/90's. Used to be able to follow your team who had a freshman and project it 2-3 years down the road. Now good luck with all the one and one guys.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2021, 01:03:46 PM »
College BB was ruined IMO when they passed the one and done rule. No cohesive programs and building year to year like 80/90's. Used to be able to follow your team who had a freshman and project it 2-3 years down the road. Now good luck with all the one and one guys.


Jeff,

I have the opposite take on this.  Greed at the NCAA level ruined the college game because like it or not the best players and teams in College Basketball are worth a ton financially (specifically March Madness) and top level players have no incentive to stick around when there is millions to be made as a Pro.  And I think players will follow the LaMelo Ball model more and more until they fix it.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2021, 01:15:36 PM »
I have a good friend who was/is a good NCAA BB coach and actually won the NCAA back in the 90's.  He still says if you rely on the three pointer he will beat you most of the time.  It's no different than a guy who relies 5 footers for par....   The thing not mentioned that I think has made a huge difference is the football receiver glove.  It allows a QB to give more lead and it allows what were once uncatchable passes to be completions thus upping the percentage of completions today vs the past...


The three point analogy would make sense if the guy who made a five footer for par was only charged for 1/2 a stroke. A three assigns a different point value for the WAY you score, and a three has been proven at the higher levels to be no way 50% more difficult, and in many cases equally or less difficult.


The wide receiver gloves is balanced out by the fact that defenders are almost always hitting the receiver just before the ball gets there, and are stunned when what they are now coached to do, is called interference. Kind've like holding, you could call it on nearly every play.
Before gloves,we had pine tar or spray stickum, but our quarterbacks hated it so we rarely used it.
I remember balls sticking to pants leg where stickum had been liberally applied.
you realize last year 2019-2020 was the lowest overall 3 point percentage made in NCAA at around 34%...using the three point play to open up down low definitely aids but inside the paint shots have a much higher percentage...
The gloves I have seen recently are much stickier than the stickum I remember...we never saw that many one handed catches...it's still impressive even w gloves...


yes 34% is about right for NCAA, but you'd have to shoot 51% on that off balance 12 footer(which is likely better defended to make it a shot worth taking.
and the NCAA is large-not exactly the elite-NBA at further back makes more, tipping the scales.
odds of being defended are also lower from 3.
The high % made of 2's is padded by dunks, layups, the same as the stats that talk about make % inside 10 feet include 3 inch tap ins, or coaches who say 40x percent of games is putts, which counts putts with 100% make % inside a foot.


A team that relies on threes can be wildly inconsistent however, and can hurt in a championship one and done game.


+1


It's interesting to watch lower leagues in most sports because strategy becomes far more volatile in the absence of hyperskill. At the pro level it's easy to talk 3s, layups, and FTs. In the NCAA, it's not that simple because guys are just so much less skilled. You can't count on 3s and FTs when you can't count on guys to hit them.


Sorta like club level golf. The game is all about bomb and gouge, the pros tell me. But I still look up to a bunch of old guys on the leaderboard, after looking back 60 yards to see them hitting their approach all round long.


Bingo


Which is why Ive always loved watching minor league  high school and small college baseball football basketball.
Coaching becomes critical when skill less prevalant.
I still remember being scolded for taking a low % shot.
At higher levels they dont exist do may as well get 50% more for it.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2021, 01:45:21 PM »
Not only age, but the way a game-sport changes over time:

, the NBA: so far this season, the average number of 3-point shots attempted per game is about 80 (almost half of all field goal attempts). Twenty years ago, that number was 14. In the early 1990s, the average number of 3 point attempts per game was 5.


That didn't sneak up! The game I love has not been played for a long time.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2021, 02:05:30 PM »
Maybe it's the over saturation of coverage that's the issue.
The more you see of something, the less you are marveled by the great shots and focus on the mundane.
The less you see, the more likely you are focus on the great plays and highlight them.
 
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2021, 02:26:23 PM »

The golf version of that is that bogeys and double bogeys rarely go viral [with the exception of Jean Van de Velde, but that was a triple on the 72nd hole of a major].  Birdies and eagles are all that I ever see on the highlight reels.

Golf started its demise when medal play became dominant.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2021, 04:23:46 PM »

The golf version of that is that bogeys and double bogeys rarely go viral [with the exception of Jean Van de Velde, but that was a triple on the 72nd hole of a major].  Birdies and eagles are all that I ever see on the highlight reels.

Golf started its demise when medal play became dominant.


So between 1945 (when Nelson won 11 straight medal tournaments) and 1958 (the last American PGA played at match play)?...Probably pretty accurate, considering that in 5 more years, IMG's 3 clients held all four medal majors and the TV golf thing was neo natal.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2021, 04:45:21 PM »
you realize last year 2019-2020 was the lowest overall 3 point percentage made in NCAA at around 34%...using the three point play to open up down low definitely aids but inside the paint shots have a much higher percentage...
The gloves I have seen recently are much stickier than the stickum I remember...we never saw that many one handed catches...it's still impressive even w gloves...




34% from 3-point range still equates to >50% 2-point shots. You might be able to get that on in-the-paint shots but the 10-20 footer is gone for good, under the current rules at least.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2021, 04:46:08 PM »

The golf version of that is that bogeys and double bogeys rarely go viral [with the exception of Jean Van de Velde, but that was a triple on the 72nd hole of a major].  Birdies and eagles are all that I ever see on the highlight reels.

Golf started its demise when medal play became dominant.


You could be right about that. I was re-reading Bobby Jones' GOLF IS MY GAME and his descriptions of his important matches are much, much more enthralling than talking about his various Opens.

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2021, 05:48:08 PM »
The game of golf changed forever when: [size=78%]the driver went from the hardest club to master to the easiest.[/size]



Proud member of a Doak 3.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2021, 06:00:43 PM »
Regarding baseball, I wonder whether the analytics change over time and with adjustments to playing conditions.  In the post war period, there was very little emphasis on stolen bases although sacrifices were more prevalent.  I can remember that in the 1950's Aparicio led the AL with stolen base totals in the mid 30's and the NL was much the same.  1959 was something of a turning point but the heyday of the stolen base came in the 60's with higher mounds and dominant pitching.  Wills, Brock, Henderson, Coleman etc. followed.  Overtime, mounds were lowered, the ball and players were juiced and the game changed.  The dominance of relief pitching increased.  It has been reported that the ball will be deadened this year.  Query whether that will make a difference.


Basketball is a more difficult issue.  Since the advent of the jump shot as the dominant method sometime in the early to mid 60's, the principal issue has been the inherent imbalance in the design of the game.  A 10 foot basket places a significant advantage on height.  Much of the emphasis on rules changes has been to reduce that advantage dating back to the ban on dunking when Jabbar/Alcindor was dominating with an undersized supporting cast.  The introduction of the 3 point line was another effort in that direction.  I can confirm that the change in officiating to make the game less physical is also a contributing factor.  I spend a fair amount of time with a former Chicago Bull from the Jordan era.  He believes that Jordan would have been even more effective today because under the current rules there would have been no way to stop him and he was a marvelous free throw shooter.  Going back further, I can remember some of the things people did to Chamberlain in the post and Robertson out on the floor and players would have fouled out in perhaps a quarter with current officiating.  It is certainly a different game.  Which is better is a matter of taste.


David and I, a couple of old tennis players (David was better without a doubt) have commented on equipment changing tennis.  Quite simply, rackets used in our era would not permit the use of western grips which are now prevalent.  Now the ability to get tremendous  pace and topspin on low balls effectively eliminates serve and volley (maybe not a bad thing) but also severely limits the all court game exemplified by Kramer and reduces the game to powerful shots from the baseline.


Baseball has done the best job of holding the line on equipment.  If wooden bats went the way of persimmon drivers, pitchers would view the fate of Herb Score as fortunate and fences would have to be extended exponentially.  Periodic minor adjustments to the ball and increases/decreases in homers show how sensitive the balance can be.


Golf may be the most sensitive because of the importance of the playing fields.  At least at the highest levels, the traditional venues no longer offer challenges that resemble those faced by Hogan, Nicklaus etc.  More importantly, the variety of required shots has been reduced fundamentally, altering the nature of the game at the highest level.  The question is, and we may be asking it too late, when was the game mature so that the challenge struck the proper balance?  It is particularly important in our game not only because we love the older courses but because the cost of buying and maintaining land for golf makes reinstating the challenge by adding sufficient length too expensive.  Additionally the additional length will be wasted on the vast majority of players.  Hence the push in some quarters for bifurcation.

Peter Pallotta

Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2021, 06:40:34 PM »
SL - good post. I'm focused on two lines: 1) 'Which is better is a matter of taste' and 2) 'When was the game mature so that the challenge struck the proper balance?'

And I'd suggest that, while it's hard to argue with point 1, fundamentally/philosophically and as a matter of principle point 2 seems to be the much more appropriate lens through which to look at this topic.

In other words, how can any game-sport *not* be better and more interesting when it strikes the 'proper balance' than when it doesn't?

When, for example, it has room for and celebrates and rewards *both* superlative 'closers' like Mariano Rivera as well as 'bull-dog complete gamers' like Jack Morris; and when its lineups feature both the big power hitters (in the 3-4 spots) as well as great contact hitters with base-stealing speed leading off and high-on base types sprinkled throughout?

When, for example, it allows a player like Magic Johnson -- still to this day the man I'd make my first pick if I was starting an expansion team -- to still be a major star in the modern version of game, ie. a true team leader and a great rebounding-and-passing 6'8" point guard who could play 4-5 positions, but one who wasn't a great outside shooter and certainly not great from 3-point range

And when a Lee Trevino has (almost) much of a chance of winning a modern major as does a Dustin Johnson or BDC? 

Isn't any sport the best sport it can be when, as a mature sport, it strikes the 'proper balance' re: all of the elements that characterize & comprise that sport?

« Last Edit: February 14, 2021, 06:46:50 PM by Peter Pallotta »

JLahrman

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Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2021, 06:47:22 PM »
College BB was ruined IMO when they passed the one and done rule. No cohesive programs and building year to year like 80/90's. Used to be able to follow your team who had a freshman and project it 2-3 years down the road. Now good luck with all the one and one guys.



It wasn't the one-and-done rule that caused this. If you want to blame anyone blame Kevin Garnett, who realized that he didn't need to waste any time in college, and selfishly refused to play a year or two for free. Between all the programs that sharpen the younger players' games and give them a ton of early experience, and the realization that for most players it's better to spend a few years on an NBA bench getting paid to learn the pro game full-time rather than have a bunch of college kids hacking away at you, and it's a no-brainer that prospects shouldn't waste time in college if they don't have to. The one-and-done rule made sense for the NBA as it gave them teams an extra year of scouting, but it didn't really affect the college game all that much. More and more players would have been forgoing years of school, it's just that a handful of them spent six months on a college campus.

SL_Solow

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Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2021, 07:17:49 PM »
Peter,  The matter of taste remark was intended to apply mostly to basketball.  But the other remark speaks to another larger question that I have thought about for a long time in considering rules and equipment issues in sports.  That question is "when is a game mature"?  The best example is baseball.  90 foot bases continue to strike a balance where there are a lot of close plays but there has been no significant change in the offense/defense balance.  The same goes for 60' 6" between the mound and home, the size of the strike zone, wooden bats.  We can argue over the size of gloves but that seems to be minor.  Changes in the ball have impact, most notably when the lively ball was adopted.  Periodically the ball is modified and homer totals are impacted.  The last significant long term changes were lowering the mound and changes to the strike zone. Thus the problems in baseball appear to be strategic and not structural.


I spoke to the issues in the other games.  I think tennis was pretty mature somewhere in the mid 70's when metal rackets had gone beyond the T2000 but before their current advancements.  The difference in playing surfaces still made an impact and there was a greater variety of successful playing styles.


I love basketball and played well into my 50's notwithstanding my small stature.  But I spoke about its inherent limitation which makes this exercise harder for that game.


As for golf, we didn't need bifurcation even in the early days of metal woods, graphite shafts and non-wound balls.  Long hitters like Nicklaus still had a significant advantage but it was not as great.  Of equal importance to the architecture, the delta between the distance they hit it as compared to amateurs was not as great so that we could play the same courses.  Many of us have suggested that a "spinnier" ball might fix things.  If we don't care about the obsolescence of traditional venues for the touring pros and/or the removal of long iron play as a fundamental test of great play, then none of this matters.  But if you enjoy the game at higher levels, it is undoubtedly less interesting.  We have an entire generation of golfers who may never know the difference.







jeffwarne

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Re: OT - It does sneak up on you
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2021, 07:31:44 PM »
Two great posts SL.
20 years has tipped the scales Im afraid.
A bit like asking you or I to go back to a gutty-which we've never played.


Sometimes when one's head is buried in sand...they fall asleep
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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