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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2017, 12:38:12 PM »
Mike,

One that I know of...

http://www.hartfordgolfclub.org/club/scripts/section/section.asp?NS=PGC


...beyond that you'll need Mark's expertise.  :)


« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 12:41:21 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sven Nilsen

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2017, 12:53:28 PM »
Pretty sure Emmet and Tull renovated the DuPont private course laid out by Ross which became DuPont CC.


Ross touched up Congressional at some point.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim Martin

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2017, 12:59:21 PM »
Mike,

One that I know of...

http://www.hartfordgolfclub.org/club/scripts/section/section.asp?NS=PGC


...beyond that you'll need Mark's expertise.  :)


Hartford is one I would have loved to play in its earliest form. So many of the original features have been removed or muted as time marched forward which is evident from the old aerial in the men's lockeroom.

mark chalfant

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2017, 09:58:24 PM »
Hartford is the only one that comes to mind.  The 1934 CT state aerial is superb. As Tim mentions it had some great bunkering and fewer trees !

Steve_ Shaffer

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Joe Bausch

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2020, 06:47:42 PM »
I need to fix those links earlier in the thread from my previous web server.  Be patient my friends.  [EDIT:  links finally fixed!]
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 03:21:01 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Peter Gannon

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2020, 09:35:26 PM »
I've driven past North Fork several times.  Slowed way down to take looks.  I would very much beleive it's a Ross from my novice eye.  Reminds me a little of Seaview Bay course, but presented more like 1980s.  it's not choked with trees, but it definitely looks like they beautified the course with tree plantings and flower boxes over the years.  The planted trees obstruct a potentially wonderful view of a body of water the East part of the property slopes down to.  It has a lot of cool, again, this is from the road, but tee boxes right off greens, and greens that seem slightly pushed up and contoured.  No elevation changes on property, but seems like the type of place where putting is premium.  Looks like a nice place, would probably be amazing with a work over a la St Georges or Southampton.  I've never played it, but would if possible.


This might be the wrong thread, but I've passed by NF a couple of times on or from rounds at Island's End in Greenport.  My local muni is Montauk Downs, but really enjoy a round at Island's End from time to time.  I've asked the pro shop, and emailed the pro this question with no replies, but maybe someone here knows the quick answer.   Island's End Golf & Country Club is attributed to Herbert Strong; but it opened in 1962.  Ariels from the 1950s confirm it was a farm until '61 or '62.  Strong passed in 1944, so that can't be correct.   My only lingering curiosity, having played Inwood and especially Engineers several times (love Engineers), are ther are a few greens at Island's end, the 8th, 9th, 15th, that are pretty severe and interesting.  Again, novice eye here, but they seem older in intent than other 1962 era courses I've played.


Herbert Strong's wikipedia lists it as his design, as well.  I've tried to find old articles, but haven't turned anything up.  It's not a must play, but it is a fun public course.  And, they let me take my 4 year old daughter with my wife and I playing even at 3pm on a Saturday.  THAT is an amazing gesture and always make us feel welcome for a LI public golf course. 


Thank you Joe for the original thread.  I've often thought about North Fork CC and it's potential.

Jeff Evagues

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2020, 12:27:41 AM »
I've driven past North Fork several times.  Slowed way down to take looks.  I would very much beleive it's a Ross from my novice eye.  Reminds me a little of Seaview Bay course, but presented more like 1980s.  it's not choked with trees, but it definitely looks like they beautified the course with tree plantings and flower boxes over the years.  The planted trees obstruct a potentially wonderful view of a body of water the East part of the property slopes down to.  It has a lot of cool, again, this is from the road, but tee boxes right off greens, and greens that seem slightly pushed up and contoured.  No elevation changes on property, but seems like the type of place where putting is premium.  Looks like a nice place, would probably be amazing with a work over a la St Georges or Southampton.  I've never played it, but would if possible.


This might be the wrong thread, but I've passed by NF a couple of times on or from rounds at Island's End in Greenport.  My local muni is Montauk Downs, but really enjoy a round at Island's End from time to time.  I've asked the pro shop, and emailed the pro this question with no replies, but maybe someone here knows the quick answer.   Island's End Golf & Country Club is attributed to Herbert Strong; but it opened in 1962.  Ariels from the 1950s confirm it was a farm until '61 or '62.  Strong passed in 1944, so that can't be correct.   My only lingering curiosity, having played Inwood and especially Engineers several times (love Engineers), are ther are a few greens at Island's end, the 8th, 9th, 15th, that are pretty severe and interesting.  Again, novice eye here, but they seem older in intent than other 1962 era courses I've played.


Herbert Strong's wikipedia lists it as his design, as well.  I've tried to find old articles, but haven't turned anything up.  It's not a must play, but it is a fun public course.  And, they let me take my 4 year old daughter with my wife and I playing even at 3pm on a Saturday.  THAT is an amazing gesture and always make us feel welcome for a LI public golf course. 


Thank you Joe for the original thread.  I've often thought about North Fork CC and it's potential.
Played Islands End many times and always wondered if the nines were built and/or designed at different times and builders. The front is relatively tight and wraps around itself and the back is much more wide open and spread out.
Be the ball

Cal Seifert

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2020, 08:59:20 AM »
Work is being done at NF this winter to remove some of the trees that have overgrown into the line of play.  I'm excited to see the results. Bradley Klein visited this summer and I am sure he recommended such actions.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2020, 09:05:55 AM by Cal Seifert »

Cal Seifert

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2020, 09:05:02 AM »
double post, my bad.

Peter Gannon

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2020, 11:58:31 PM »
That's exciting about North Fork.  Looking at aerials of 1954 compared to 2017, there seems to be the same routing.  Way fewer trees in '54, and greens and greenside bunkers seemed way more square, with series of small bunkers ringing the greens tight.  More like a Golden Era "short" idea, but in '17 much more conventional looking amoeba(y) bunkers.  Just a hunch, but seems like a really fun play.  Also, maybe some of the square greens and surrounding bunkers have Emmet's hand in play, if he did collaborate/contribute/conceive of the second 9?


I read a few online articles, and nothing conclusive, but on Island's End, it opens in 1960 as a 9 holer, which is the present back 9.  Construction was credited to Tom Heron, "a PGA Professional", with the second 9 (present day front) added in 1963.  Assuming same construction credit, but have not seen that.  I can't find much on Tom Heron - PGA.  I will keep working on why Herbert Stong is credited as course architect.


I really enjoy Island's End, and I think it really becomes interesting at 14.  That's a short par 5 that puts you in position with a good tee shot to reach in 2 easily, but a bad tee shot means a definite lay up.  15 is a short, but no way driveable par 4 dramatically up the dune/ridge that overlooks the LI Sound.  The bluff is the only elevation change on property, and 15 play up the ridge thoughfully and creatively.  (Just like Seminole, right?  Ha.  Never played it).  15 is short, but a severe back to front green that makes being above the hole a likely 3 putt.  16 is the hole they promote the most, plays along the ridge to the East with the LI Sound all on the right.  It's a punchbowl esque green that runs off the ridge from front right to back left.  I'm almost always short on the 203 yd shot, and that chip to the front pin positions are nearly impossible.  17 you tee off the ridge back toward the clubhouse, par 5 with only opening on the green the front right.  True 3 shotter.  And a pretty epic par 4 closer on 18.  They are really good golf holes.  Takes awhile for the course to build up to them, but it's a fun finish. 


I've had a summer home on the East End of LI for 5 years.  I'm now a full time 2020-21 resident, but from what I understand, Island's End has come a long way improving it's course.  People there are great, has a really cool community vibe, people having food/drink on the back patio which are steps to the range, and 10 tee box, which apparently was 1.  I see plenty of good players, plenty of famllies, lots of women golfers, everyone seems pretty happy.  (Don't tell anyone).  I did read at one point they accepted thousands of tree species as a sanctuary.  I don't think the trees overly interfere with play, but it certainly would be more interesting to trim out 50% or more of them.  Just the kind of place with amazing potential, but good fun as it is currently.  (you do see a few grassed over, ghost bunkers with trees growing out of them that are intriguing.  Right of 13 fairway.  Left of 14 fairway right at the dogleg turn.). Those restored bunkers would be more interesting to me vs the trees.


The front and back do feel different, but there are a couple of clues like 8 green and the tiers, 9 with it's dramatic front to back slope, that feel really tasteful and not the run of the mill public course presentation.  Ton of those in Suffolk County, and most of them are fine, but Island's End feels like there's a deeper story there. 




Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2020, 11:40:29 PM »
NY state pulls liquor license of country club that hosted 'super spreader' wedding


Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D-N.Y.) announced on Monday that a Long Island country club’s liquor license was suspended after it hosted a “superspreader” wedding that has been linked to more than 30 cases of the coronavirus.The New York State Liquor Authority charged the North Fork Country Club with multiple charges of failing to comply with the state’s COVID-19 restrictions. The venue is currently banned from serving alcohol until the violations are addressed.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/525183-ny-state-pulls-liquor-license-of-country-club-that-hosted-super-spreader
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Joe Bausch

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2021, 03:12:26 PM »
I've updated all the links from earlier and they work again! 

Whoever did this research way back when was pretty good.  Grin.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2021, 03:43:29 PM »
A quick search using Newspapers.com also turned up another article mentioning Ross at North Fork, this from the July 1, 1912 edition of the Brooklyn Times Union:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Cal Seifert

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2021, 09:40:30 AM »
Thank you for all the research.  I found a 1930 aerial of the course through suffolk county archives.  Sorry for the small size.



Joe Bausch

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2021, 12:44:43 PM »
Nice aerial, Cal.  Any chance that can be had in a large size?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Cal Seifert

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2021, 07:12:10 AM »
Here is the link.  It should let you zoom in on the picture. 


http://digital.library.stonybrook.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/aerial/id/205/rec/121

Joe Bausch

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2021, 08:14:09 AM »
Here is that 1930 aerial Cal provided but in a larger format (it is clickable to a larger size):

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tim Martin

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2021, 08:27:54 AM »
Here is that 1930 aerial Cal provided but in a larger format (it is clickable to a larger size):




A variety of bunker schemes around the greens with some heavily guarded.

MCirba

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2021, 08:52:14 AM »
Definitely more cross-bunkery and geometric than one would imagine from Ross, yet still very early in his design career.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

mark chalfant

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2021, 09:42:08 AM »
I believe Devereux Emmet added 9 holes some time during the 1920s. The exuberant bunkering seen on many holes (in 1930 aerial) may reflect Emmet's work at North Fork.

Phil Carlucci

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Re: North Fork CC on Long Island: was Donald Ross the architect?
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2021, 09:19:16 AM »
I read a few online articles, and nothing conclusive, but on Island's End, it opens in 1960 as a 9 holer, which is the present back 9.  Construction was credited to Tom Heron, "a PGA Professional", with the second 9 (present day front) added in 1963.  Assuming same construction credit, but have not seen that.  I can't find much on Tom Heron - PGA.  I will keep working on why Herbert Stong is credited as course architect.
This one slipped by me back in October, Peter.

At least some of the credit for Island's End likely goes to Charles Martin, a course builder and designer who did lots of work on the 1960s-era Long Island courses.  It's not clear if Martin designed the course or constructed it, but Herbert Strong certainly had nothing to do with Island's End, and it definitely wasn't built by Strong in 1914, as is listed in some corners of the golf web.  Aerial photos disprove that.

His work began well before the '60s.  Golfdom magazine claimed in 1965 that Martin's reach extended to 90 percent of the golf courses open in Westchester and on Long Island at the time, either as a builder, designer or restoration specialist.
Might not pertain to Island's End, but Martin told Newsday in 2010, "It is a great shame when a person's work is credited to someone else."
https://www.golfonlongisland.com/teebox/2016/06/remembering-charles-k-martin-prominent-long-island-golf-course-designer.html
Golf On Long Island: www.GolfOnLongIsland.com
Author, Images of America: Long Island Golf