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Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« on: February 11, 2021, 03:55:26 PM »
The ditch on 2
The tee shot on 3
The size of the 4th green
The wall on 6
The 8th beginning to end
The last 100 yards of 9
The 14th green
The last 50 yards of 16
The 17th green
The tree in the middle of 18

I thought there was quite a bit of charm mixed in with the vistas and the difficulty.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2021, 04:19:02 PM »
It is one of my favorite golf courses on the planet.  It all depends on how you define quirk  :D

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2021, 04:48:45 PM »
The ditch on 2
The tee shot on 3
The size of the 4th green
The wall on 6
The 8th beginning to end
The last 100 yards of 9
The 14th green
The last 50 yards of 16
The 17th green
The tree in the middle of 18

I thought there was quite a bit of charm mixed in with the vistas and the difficulty.


I would say so. It's just that it's easier to  say a course is "quirky" if it's a bit more "off the beaten path," maybe.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2021, 05:12:33 PM »
I'm not sure I would use "quirky." There a many places with ditches, forced carries over the ocean, etc. I might use distinctive though.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Phil Burr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2021, 06:49:15 PM »
It's a great conversation.  When I think of quirky, I think of courses that incorporate man-made features such as walls, railways, roads, etc.  Pebble is blessed with so much more than simply one mile plus of glorious shoreline.  The site is entirely natural, including (i) the ditch at 2; (ii) the barranca that begins beneath the third tee, encircles the 16th green & cuts in front 4 tee; (iii) elevation changes throughout that make possible holes like 6 & 14; etc.  To me, the most quirky hole at Pebble is 15, where the tee shot must be drawn to avoid ending up on 17 Mile Drive (a car I was driving on the Drive was once struck by a shot that did not conform to the required shape - maybe it's the road that's quirky rather than the golf?).


My question is: would any modern architect, given a topo map of the property and no knowledge of what currently exists, craft a similar routing?  How many would dare to build a par 5 with a second shot like the one at 6?  Or a downhill 100 yard par 3?  Or the 8th, a mid-length par four where it's not uncommon for a golfer's second shot to cover a greater distance than their tee ball?  Or a fairway like 9, where (until recently) a bomb off the tee still left the player with a long iron/fairway wood from a hanging lie to a tiny green with death scant yards to the right?


It's often written that the inland holes at Pebble are inferior.  I agree with TD when his first Golf Course Confidential referred to 12 as (IIRC) "Hamburger Helper".  That said, I think all of the rest are holes of merit.  I have played PB 8 times and have treasured every hole of every loop.  Watching the telecast makes me want to dust off the clubs I stowed five years ago.  I can't think of anywhere else that evokes that emotion.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2021, 06:54:30 PM »
Phil, is it the course or the history that excites you about the course? Or a combination of the two?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Phil Burr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2021, 06:57:28 PM »
To put a bow on my earlier post, I would describe PB as audacious.  I haven't played another American course where the architect defied as many conventions of their time as Neville & Grant did in Carmel.


Would love to hear about other courses that could be described as audacious.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2021, 07:07:33 PM »
I played Lahinch (with Mr Moore) and Pebble Beach just the one time each, and I have to say I put Lahinch at 7 to 3 in the "10 Round Test".


That does not mean that I did not love Pebble Beach, but I think Lahinch is quirkier, more old school (no cart paths, and Surf Town), and I am guessing windier on a daily basis:






"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2021, 07:27:01 PM »
Pebble Beach was my Oct 15 trip for 23 consecutive years, Land in SF at 11 am, tee up at 2 pm at either SFCC or ________, drive to PB, play Pebble every day for 6 days, afternoon rounds at Spyglass or Cypress when we could get on. 23 x 6 =138 rounds at Pebble. Loved every round, the first 8 holes are the scoring holes, I used to want to be even to 1-2 over, then it get tough the rest of the way.''


Quirky, yes because of the variety of the holes. The only holes I didn't like were 12, 13 and the stupid green (real hard) on 14, loved the balance. Had wonderful, memorable caddies, lots of characters.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2021, 07:39:54 PM »
Phil,
I have never thought of Pebble Beach as audacious but I guess some of the holes fit that description.  Quirky, however, would not be what comes to my mind.  I was embarrassed to say how many times I have played Pebble Beach (until Cary made his post)  :D  but Pebble is a course you never tire of playing.  Not every hole is perfect (#12 being my least favorite but it has grown on me) but every hole is still worth seeing and playing.  There are various versions of 10’s on this planet and Pebble Beach is one of them.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2021, 10:07:21 PM »
To put a bow on my earlier post, I would describe PB as audacious.  I haven't played another American course where the architect defied as many conventions of their time as Neville & Grant did in Carmel.



A lot of those conventions were defied by Herbert Fowler and Chandler Egan and Alister MacKenzie in the ten years after the course opened.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2021, 10:58:53 PM »
Quirky as hell. It just packages the quirk up in a very 1990s US Open-looking package. It doesn't have dunes like quirky courses are supposed to.


It does, however, have a pretty delightfully funky collection of holes.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2021, 01:42:46 AM »
The ditch on 2
The tee shot on 3
The size of the 4th green
The wall on 6
The 8th beginning to end
The last 100 yards of 9
The 14th green
The last 50 yards of 16
The 17th green
The tree in the middle of 18

I thought there was quite a bit of charm mixed in with the vistas and the difficulty.
I never thought of Pebble Beach as quirky and the examples you cite don’t change my mind, though the tree on 18 did kind of irritate me.
Tim Weiman

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2021, 03:52:45 AM »
I'd say unique, not quirky. Also the greens are really what stand out to me. With typical wind there and the small greens it is VERY tough for us amateurs. Don't think it is especially difficult at all without wind.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2021, 04:05:50 AM »
For Pebble Beach as it once was - Ran's Courses by Country piece -
https://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/pebble-beach/
atb


PS - there might be some more similar photos here -https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67883.msg1624141.html#msg1624141
« Last Edit: February 12, 2021, 04:08:56 AM by Thomas Dai »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2021, 09:13:51 AM »
Ran’s write up on Pebble is excellent as always.  He notes many of the changes and the evolution of the course over the years.  None of it is really surprising.  If you compared its famous neighbor right up the street, you would find similar change and that course only gets a tiny fraction of the play that Pebble has to deal with which makes a huge difference. [/size]Some courses just have an aura about it them.  Pebble is one of them.  Few give me the same sensations as playing Pebble Beach.  I am as big a critic of architecture as anyone and there are things I see there that I would change, but for some reason at Pebble Beach, it doesn’t seem to bother me as much.  I guess I have become bias.  I still have to pinch myself every time I play there that I have clubs in hand and am getting to play golf on that property.  I don’t agree with Nicklaus on a lot of things (especially these days) but I do agree with him that Pebble might be my choice for a last round of golf. 

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2021, 10:38:29 AM »
Stop calling them the "inland" holes! They are 1/4 mile from the water and half of them have stunning panoramic ocean views.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2021, 10:51:34 AM »
Aren't all great courses "quirky" using your examples of "quirkiness"?
I don't understand the implications of your question--is "quirky" good or bad?

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2021, 12:25:14 PM »
It's things that you just don't see elsewhere. Maybe other courses have ditch bunkers, or whatever they are called, but are they fifty yards wide by ten yards long by eight feet deep, placed just so?
 
Quirk is great until it isn't. I will be driving right past Cullen Golf Links in September.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2021, 12:30:37 PM »
Now if the original 5th hole still existed, then it would be quirky.   ;D
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2021, 12:51:25 PM »
With only one play, I thought PB has alot in common with many of the favorites in the Northeast.  I'm used to playing courses with small greens surrounded by sticky rough, and quirky features routed through our rocky New England landscape.


Take the ocean away, and you could convince me I was playing in New England with the on-the-ground course features.


Too bad the "PB of Maine" ended up as Samoset!  Not my fave.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2021, 01:40:53 PM »
Seems every time we talk about Pebble Beach we talk about The Ocean.  Without the ocean, most think Pebble Beach would be just another nice but nothing special golf course.  There are soooo many courses that wouldn’t be anything close to what they are without their setting.  How great would the 18th hole be at St. Andrews without the town?  We were talking about the 16th hole at TPC Scottsdale.  That hole is nothing special at all until you put the new setting up around it then all of a sudden something changes and it becomes special in some way.  Take that setting away and you are back to the same old hole.  The difference with that setting at #16 is it is temporary, the ones at Pebble Beach and St. Andrews and many other places are not. 


Pebble Beach might be quirky, audacious, unique,…all those things, but one thing for sure is it is a must play.  Such a shame it is so expensive as that is the only negative but even at $500 plus a round the place is packed and we have all seen what so much play can do/has done to the design.  I wonder what CP would look like if you had a ten fold increase in the number of rounds it gets. 

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2021, 02:19:48 PM »

WOW, that is quirky!

https://www.golfmagic.com/pga-tour/social-media-reacts-mind-blowing-pebble-beach-statistic

"Pebble Beach and St Andrews are two of the most famous venues in golf and during the opening round of this week's PGA Tour event, the AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am, an interesting statistic about the two was posted on Twitter by GOLFTV.

According to the broadcasting giants, Pebble Beach's greens are so small that all 18 of them fit onto the 18th green at Scotland's historic St Andrews"

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2021, 02:23:35 PM »

WOW, that is quirky!

https://www.golfmagic.com/pga-tour/social-media-reacts-mind-blowing-pebble-beach-statistic

"Pebble Beach and St Andrews are two of the most famous venues in golf and during the opening round of this week's PGA Tour event, the AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am, an interesting statistic about the two was posted on Twitter by GOLFTV.

According to the broadcasting giants, Pebble Beach's greens are so small that all 18 of them fit onto the 18th green at Scotland's historic St Andrews"



And Jeff Mingay quickly pointed out that the front 9 greens (as was originally Tweeted as a graphic) didn’t actually fit into the same area as the 18th at St. Andrews. Now, it’s up to 18 greens from PB that fit there? Leave it to the major media outlets to dramatize the unfactual.....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach is quirky, right?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2021, 03:23:43 PM »
The size, shape, and contouring of the greens says quirk.
AKA Mayday