What is the "Bottle Hole"?

[JLahrman]

George,

#13 at Camargo is listed as the Bottle hole.  Does this hole qualify by your definition?  I know that some have debated whether a few of the holes at Camargo are properly named ie is #3 really a Leven?  On #13 I don't know if I'd say that the landing area narrows...if you want to hit driver you'll have to fade it to keep it in the fairway but I don't know that the fairway is any narrower.  I never hit driver there and played the course in my pre-GCA days so I maybe I didn't pay close enough attention.  It's possible that the fairway is more sloped at driver distance and therefore the landing area plays narrower than the fairway.

[Scott_Burroughs]

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Various Bottles mentioned here:

#13 at Camargo (on left - how is it a Bottle?  #12 running across the middle looks more Bottle-like) - :



#12 at Kittansett (in middle going east to west):



#8 at NGLA:



#12 Sunningdale (Old - lower middle left, going ENE):

[George_Bahto]

JAL: I'm not sure why we/they ended up calling 13 a bottle hole except from the original Raynor layout the fairway up to the landing area was intended to be extremely wide - perhaps 80-yds (without measuring). This is from the original intent concept of the course not what may or may not have hit the ground.

The fairway up to about 250 yds was very wide, then from about 150 or so in to the green it was drawn about half that width - hence the narrowing ...... and the topo falls off in that area also if I remember correctly.

#3 was originally bunkered like a Leven hole but the berm may have been softened or eliminated. The length also indicates "Leven" - a short par-4 (it was originally drawn as a par 3 of 220 yds - 8 was original drawn as 160 yds ..... these "original intent plans are very interesting  - you can see the changes that took place during construction.

[JLahrman]

Scott, #12 at Camargo does look like more of a Bottle from the air, but those cross bunkers are too far out there to come into play.  Mostly they serve as an optical illusion that makes the green look a lot closer than it really is.  Which is cool and #12 is the best par 4 on the course in my mind, but I wouldn't call it a Bottle either.

Thanks George.  If the fairway were wider on 13 like you said it was going to be, I could see the Bottle name.  And as I said in my previous post, as I recall the area around the dogleg does fall pretty sharply right, so as you go further out the landing area may effectively narrow.  I hit 3-wood on cold wet days and 2-iron when the course was dry and fast so I can't attest myself.  With regards to #3 (please clear up any misconceptions I have), my thought is that the approach is too far uphill to be a Leven.  I was under the impression that a Leven hole typically offers a clear shot from one side of the fairway where you flirt with a hazard, or a blind shot from the other side but an easier tee shot.  #3 seems to me to be blind from anyplace due to the hill.  I think building up a bunker on one side would make it more blind from that side of the fairway, but I don't know that there would be a truly visible shot from anyplace unless the player wants to bang it way up there.

[George_Bahto]

I have their club history in front of me and my drawing also - it is very typical Leven in greenside bunkering. The left bunker wraps around the front of the green and from the left portion of the fairway the green is obscured but from the right the green opens up to the players view.

I can't remember how it plays but it looks perfect.

I personally think it was never bunkered according to strict Leven strategy. There is, and always has been, a bunker off fairway on the left but this is the "wrong" side to approach from and this bunker forces you to think "hit to the right" - it should be the other way around.

The fairway hazard should tend to steer you to the bad-side approach - the obstructed-view, more blind side, so in this case the fairway hazard might better be on the right - you go left - and you have the more difficult approach.

As most are aware, this is the 17th NGLA.

[JLahrman]

I can see what you're saying.  I do remember the right part of the fairway being the better side to come into--especially with a back left pin obviously--I just don't remember the view being that much clearer from the right.  So the approach checks out but the fairway hazard bit doesn't?