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Philippe Binette

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why not narrow fairways ?
« on: February 08, 2021, 03:01:45 PM »
just a reflexion here, for an open debate...


what if a course was built with fairways averaging 18 / 20 yards wide
BUT,
with a 12-15 yards wide of 3/4 to 1 inch high "rough" on both sides of the fairway.


Ok the fairways width would vary from maybe 12 yards to 30 yards wide here and there, accroding to topography...


1) it could add more uneven lies..
2) play toward the light light rough for a better angle ?


would like your comments


Tim Gavrich

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Re: why not narrow fairways ?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2021, 03:48:31 PM »

Philippe, my home course has a few holes that are quite similar to what you describe. I played on Saturday and hit the ball quite well off the tee, but hit only 2 total fairways. By my recollection, I was less than a yard off the edge of a fairway 8 other times. On those holes, I definitely felt less confident in my ability to control my distance on my approach.


I think a similar situation would unfold to what was described at the U.S. Open at Winged Foot: at a certain point, fairways become so narrow that accurate drivers cannot build an advantage over long and wild ones because everyone's fairways-hit percentage goes down significantly, together. It seems that a similar phenomenon might take place in your example.
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Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: why not narrow fairways ?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2021, 03:51:05 PM »
A couple things: 3/4" to 1" rough still needs almost all the inputs that your fairway cut would. Irrigation, fertilizers, even fungicides in challenging climates. So there wouldn't much be savings to it, so why not just mow it as fairway? Similarly, many courses have two different grass types fairway to rough. Typical would be bent/poa fairway to Kentucky bluegrass/rye/fescue smorgasbord rough. My understanding is that Diamond Springs in MI has a wall to wall 3/4" bluegrass cut. So shaggier than your average fairway, but great uniformity outside of the green. I think this is a better model.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 03:56:51 PM by Tom Bacsanyi »
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Matt Kardash

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Re: why not narrow fairways ?
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2021, 04:32:38 PM »
Isn't this exactly what Dye did at French Lick? He stated that he opted for narrower fairways between 20 and 30 yards with short rough on both sides. He figured the average golfer has more success out of short rough than the fairway.


Also, I imagine with a setup like this they wouldn't need to modify the mowing patterns for a professional tournament. Perhaps they would just let the rough grow a little longer.


Aerial of the course here
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 04:38:29 PM by Matt Kardash »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Thomas Dai

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Re: why not narrow fairways ?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2021, 05:11:55 PM »
Can the proverbial ‘my grandmother’ hit decent shots from 3/4”-1” rough? Just asking.
Atb

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: why not narrow fairways ?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2021, 05:20:59 PM »
Isn't this exactly what Dye did at French Lick? He stated that he opted for narrower fairways between 20 and 30 yards with short rough on both sides. He figured the average golfer has more success out of short rough than the fairway.


Also, I imagine with a setup like this they wouldn't need to modify the mowing patterns for a professional tournament. Perhaps they would just let the rough grow a little longer.


Aerial of the course here
All the fairways are tabletops that fall off (very dramatically in some instances) with thick tall fescue/bluegrass rough, and side hill lies.  It’s very penal.  That is a very tough golf course, but fun.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: why not narrow fairways ?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2021, 07:03:16 PM »
Isn't this exactly what Dye did at French Lick? He stated that he opted for narrower fairways between 20 and 30 yards with short rough on both sides. He figured the average golfer has more success out of short rough than the fairway.


Also, I imagine with a setup like this they wouldn't need to modify the mowing patterns for a professional tournament. Perhaps they would just let the rough grow a little longer.


Aerial of the course here
All the fairways are tabletops that fall off (very dramatically in some instances) with thick tall fescue/bluegrass rough, and side hill lies.  It’s very penal.  That is a very tough golf course, but fun.
From everything I have read the rough is supposed to be cut very short. But I agree that the concept doesn't work as well as intended since the drop-offs are severe.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

jeffwarne

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Re: why not narrow fairways ?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2021, 08:10:55 PM »
Can the proverbial ‘my grandmother’ hit decent shots from 3/4”-1” rough? Just asking.
Atb


she prefers it.
When I give playing lessons and get there first...a lot of balls end up in rough this long
Fairways were this length in places not that long ago
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

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Re: why not narrow fairways ?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2021, 02:23:55 AM »
I would be more inclined to have a single height through fairway and rough...maybe .75 inch. The problem with one height is the ground game is adversely hindered. But if you have 20 yard wide fairways it will look stupid in many places. The scale of fairway to corridor would be off.

I can see one height working, but adjusted according to season and weather. Why does it need to stay one height all year?

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Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: why not narrow fairways ?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2021, 09:30:02 AM »
just a reflexion here, for an open debate...


what if a course was built with fairways averaging 18 / 20 yards wide
BUT,
with a 12-15 yards wide of 3/4 to 1 inch high "rough" on both sides of the fairway.


Ok the fairways width would vary from maybe 12 yards to 30 yards wide here and there, accroding to topography...


1) it could add more uneven lies..
2) play toward the light light rough for a better angle ?


would like your comments


I believe that is basically what Smyers built at Maridoe.  If you miss the fairway the rough will be just long enough to make a good player think (worry) about controlling the spin while not penal for higher handicaps.  My experience is that the green sites are too severe for my game even from the fairway so I can’t comment on whether he provided a good challenge for a good player.




JESII

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Re: why not narrow fairways ?
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2021, 10:22:13 AM »
How far does the ball roll in 3/4" rough?


I love watching the ball roll...

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: why not narrow fairways ?
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2021, 10:23:45 AM »
How far does the ball roll in 3/4" rough?


I love watching the ball roll...


Not too far, but it could bounce...
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: why not narrow fairways ?
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2021, 12:34:31 PM »
What's a reasonable height of cut that will let the ball bounce and roll a while (both online and offline...) while still providing some cushion? I'm sure this is different in Great Britain than Florida, but give me an idea. Is it 1/2"

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: why not narrow fairways ?
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2021, 12:54:37 PM »
Depends on grass type. For example, you would not want bentgrass at 3/4" in any application as that surface would be awful. Meanwhile, a hairlike fine fescue would just kind of lay over and I think would play pretty well at 3/4" (but I would defer to the UK guys opinion on this). I think a high HOC in bermuda would stifle roll but I'd defer to the 'mooda guys on that. Again a lot depends on how dry the surface would be, even in a shaggier grass if you can get a big first bounce that would give you some action.


Here's an idea of what Diamond Springs looks like. To me it looks like about 3/4" Kentucky bluegrass.


https://thefriedegg.com/diamond-springs-golf-course/
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon