Dean Knuth's piece on William Watson now posted under IMO

[Sven Nilsen]

Kudos to Dean Knuth for digging into the history of a fine (and rarely photographed) architect.

I can confirm William Watson for the original nine of Minne Monesse, near Grant Park, Ill., in Kankakee County. Opened 1926 as a par 34, eventually par 37, closed 1943 because of World War II, reopened 1961, E.G. "Ted" Lockie added nine in 1964. Remodeled 1996. I'd say six of the original nine holes remain.


I can also confirm Watson for South Shore CC in Momence, Ill., a bit north of Minne Monesse. Opened 1928. Another other Momence reference are actually for South Shore.


Olympia Fields is complicated and worth a different reply later.

Tim:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't South Shore located southwest of Minne-Monesse, on the south bank of the river?


Do you have any articles or other sources that discuss South Shore?  I have searched around a good bit, and the first mentions I can find of the course are from the 1960's.  While Minne-Monesse appears in the Annual Guides from the late 1920's, there is no mention of South Shore.


Is it possible South Shore was known as Garden of Eden GC, or was that a completely different course located near Momence.  Garden of Eden appears in the 1931 Annual Guide with a date of organization of 1927 and 9 holes.


I've also looked on historic aerials, and in the earliest aerial for the area from 1952 it appears that there was a golf course on the South Shore site.  By the looks of later aerials it looks like the course was extended to 18 holes after that 1952 date.


Glad that you agree that the inclusion of "Momence Links" is a mistake.


Sven

[Niall C]

Mark

This isn't a scientific journal, it's a website for geeks.
 

Geeks, more than anyone, should seek the truth when it comes to matters of historical record. Essays like this have the potential of being referenced for generations to come, so it's highly irresponsible to excuse inaccuracies simply because they're posted under the heading of "In My Opinion."

Mark

I can only imagine lockdown is getting to you. It's golf course history after all, it really isn't that important. Besides, when it comes to the history of golf courses it is often a matter of opinion based on imperfect "knowledge" gleaned from press reports. Who's to say Sven is right in his corrections or that Dean was right all along ? Personally, I'm thankful to both these gentlemen for taking the time to share what they have.

Niall

[Sven Nilsen]

Niall -


You've already posted a number of times on a thread that you obviously don't care about, yet have the gall to claim that lockdown is getting to others.


If this isn't that important to you, please do us the favor of letting those of us to whom it is continue the conversation without you mucking it up.


Sven

[Mark Kiely]

Mark

I can only imagine lockdown is getting to you. It's golf course history after all, it really isn't that important.

Do you even know what website you're on? Hint: It's not ApologistAtlas.com.

Also, you'd better inform Ran. Because he stated in the establishing post of this thread that setting Watson's record correct is, in fact, important.

[Niall C]

Sven

If I didn't care about it why am I reading this thread ? Why am I taking the time to post ? Simply put I am interested in the history of golf. I might not have anything substantive to add about the courses but that's not to say I'm not interested. My lockdown comment was intended as gentle humour and as a means of encouraging Mark to look at things in perspective. If the last year has taught some of us anything it is that the history of a sport isn't that important.

I might add that I say that as someone who has spent an inordinate amount of time (and money) looking through golf magazines, journals and newspapers, online, in print and at source. I've trawled through dusty archives, visited numerous libraries and travelled round the country doing so. All in the pursuit of golf history. So yes, I have the gall to suggest that golf course history isn't that important relatively speaking.

I might add that if you consider my posts for a moment, you might note that I'm actually encouraging the continuation of the discussion rather than having it closed down as Mark seems to want. I'd have thought that would be something you'd be quite happy about.

Niall

[Niall C]

Mark

I can only imagine lockdown is getting to you. It's golf course history after all, it really isn't that important.

Do you even know what website you're on? Hint: It's not ApologistAtlas.com.

Also, you'd better inform Ran. Because he stated in the establishing post of this thread that setting Watson's record correct is, in fact, important.

Mark

When you set golf course history beside beating COVID, fighting poverty etc, how important is it really ? Unless you are a complete dickhead I think you'd readily agree the answer is not very. Is that so difficult to say even on a golf course architecture site ? Otherwise, see my response to Sven above.

Niall

[Mark Kiely]

Now you're simply backtracking by trying to compare golf history with real "important" matters. I never said this was important in a vast, universal sense (although, considering current events, it could be argued that the pursuit of truth is more important than ever).

But the venue matters. You're not on some generalist website. You're on a site solely dedicated to golf architecture. So in that context, it's certainly important.

Since the "time" invested is seemingly all it takes to garner your respect, would you likewise be thankful for a long-form piece on how Robert Trent Jones Sr. is actually a descendant of the planet Golfdar, sent to Earth to proliferate bowling alley fairways and to propagate as many future golf course architects as possible? It could take me hours, days, or even weeks to write it, so I bet you'd love it!

For the record, I'm not taking any sides here. All I know is many of the "facts" presented in the essay have come under question, and I think it would be good to examine those further. (And if it was my website, I'd probably prefer that not be done publicly after writing such a glowing introduction to said essay.)

[Niall C]

Now you're simply backtracking by trying to compare golf history with real "important" matters. I never said this was important in a vast, universal sense (although, considering current events, it could be argued that the pursuit of truth is more important than ever). Backtracking ? So what did you think I was comparing it to ?

But the venue matters. You're not on some generalist website. You're on a site solely dedicated to golf architecture. So in that context, it's certainly important. Yes context matters, and that was exactly the point I was making about this being an enthusiasts discussion board. Where else would you post a piece like Deans ?

Since the "time" invested is seemingly all it takes to garner your respect, would you likewise be thankful for a long-form piece on how Robert Trent Jones Sr. is actually a descendant of the planet Golfdar, sent to Earth to proliferate bowling alley fairways and to propagate as many future golf course architects as possible? It could take me hours, days, or even weeks to write it, so I bet you'd love it!

For the record, I'm not taking any sides here. Really !!!! All I know is many of the "facts" presented in the essay have come under question, and I think it would be good to examine those further. Absolutely. So how are you suggesting that is done if not online and in the open ? After all you seem to be a big fan of getting to the "truth". (And if it was my website, I'd probably prefer that not be done publicly after writing such a glowing introduction to said essay.) Thankfully it isn't your website and Ran seems to be very happy to allow folk to come forward with ideas and opinions and for those ideas and opinions to be discussed in a mostly friendly manner. Long may that continue.

[Tim_Cronin]

Kudos to Dean Knuth for digging into the history of a fine (and rarely photographed) architect.

I can confirm William Watson for the original nine of Minne Monesse, near Grant Park, Ill., in Kankakee County. Opened 1926 as a par 34, eventually par 37, closed 1943 because of World War II, reopened 1961, E.G. "Ted" Lockie added nine in 1964. Remodeled 1996. I'd say six of the original nine holes remain.


I can also confirm Watson for South Shore CC in Momence, Ill., a bit north of Minne Monesse. Opened 1928. Another other Momence reference are actually for South Shore.


Olympia Fields is complicated and worth a different reply later.

Tim:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't South Shore located southwest of Minne-Monesse, on the south bank of the river?


Do you have any articles or other sources that discuss South Shore?  I have searched around a good bit, and the first mentions I can find of the course are from the 1960's.  While Minne-Monesse appears in the Annual Guides from the late 1920's, there is no mention of South Shore.


Is it possible South Shore was known as Garden of Eden GC, or was that a completely different course located near Momence.  Garden of Eden appears in the 1931 Annual Guide with a date of organization of 1927 and 9 holes.


I've also looked on historic aerials, and in the earliest aerial for the area from 1952 it appears that there was a golf course on the South Shore site.  By the looks of later aerials it looks like the course was extended to 18 holes after that 1952 date.


Glad that you agree that the inclusion of "Momence Links" is a mistake.


Sven

Sven,


    Yes, Momence is south of Minne Monesse, not north. I manage to mix Momence and Manteno (north of Minne) in my mind all too often. They all look alike rolling down I-57.


    I have South Shore opening no later than 1928, but it's listed as 1927 in the Chicago World's Fair Golf Guide (1933) and a Watson diagram of the par-3 seventh hole is on page 77 of Golf Architecture in America (1927). The course is identified simply as "Momence, Ill." I have not found contemporary newspaper coverage of the opening.


    Garden of Eden G&CC was a completely different course east of Momence.


Tim


PS, wearing my copy editor's hat, to others – There's no space between a word and a question mark.

[Sven Nilsen]

Tim:


I took a look at the Illinois Aerial Photography sites to see if I could match up that Golf Architecture In America green drawing to any of the holes visible on both the Minne-Monesse and South Shore sites.  No luck so far. 


Do you know where I might be able to find a copy of the World's Fair Golf Guide you noted? 


Whatever was happening in the late 1920's in Momence must have been remarkable.  The number of courses built in such a short period of time in what is a pretty rural area is peculiar.


Sven

[Tim_Cronin]

Tim:


I took a look at the Illinois Aerial Photography sites to see if I could match up that Golf Architecture In America green drawing to any of the holes visible on both the Minne-Monesse and South Shore sites.  No luck so far. 


Do you know where I might be able to find a copy of the World's Fair Golf Guide you noted? 


Whatever was happening in the late 1920's in Momence must have been remarkable.  The number of courses built in such a short period of time in what is a pretty rural area is peculiar.


Sven

I've got a copy of that World's Fair Guide buried here somewhere and will make a PDF when (if?) I find it. A list of courses similar to the American Golf Guide, maybe cribbed from it.


It seems Kankakee County, at least along the river, was something of a resort capital for a time. Roads were being built, some people had money to get away from the big city, and did. Garden of Eden was described as a resort. Hieland (Kankakee Elks) was a destination course, albeit without a hotel. And Minne Monesse, one of my favorites, was this nine-hole (now 18) gem in a converted cow pasture in the middle of nowhere. Only recently did I come across the Watson connection.

[Sven Nilsen]

An addition to the list that I have not seen cited anywhere else.


Benbow Valley Golf Course f/k/a Benbow Golf and Country Club, Garberville, CA 1924


July 19, 1924 Press-Democrat

[Garland Bayley]

An addition to the list that I have not seen cited anywhere else.


Benbow Valley Golf Course f/k/a Benbow Golf and Country Club, Garberville, CA 1924


July 19, 1924 Press-Democrat

Lane of huge pine trees? I doubt that! It's not located on the Huge Pine Tree Highway.

[Jeff Schley]

Tim:


I took a look at the Illinois Aerial Photography sites to see if I could match up that Golf Architecture In America green drawing to any of the holes visible on both the Minne-Monesse and South Shore sites.  No luck so far. 


Do you know where I might be able to find a copy of the World's Fair Golf Guide you noted? 


Whatever was happening in the late 1920's in Momence must have been remarkable.  The number of courses built in such a short period of time in what is a pretty rural area is peculiar.


Sven

Sven,
My mom's family is from Kankakee and she grew up there. Momence and later Kankakee grew primarily because of the Kankakee River and the railroad. Momence had some very esteemed resorts which attracted many visitors as it was adjacent to the Kankakee River. Kankakee itself was built off the railroad crossing and became a place of culture and development in the early 1900's with a theater, Frank Lloyd Wright built a couple of homes there as well. It was a fairly affluent area south of Chicago. The very first section of I-57 connected Bradley and Kankakee back in the late 50's.

So the area, while small and out of the way perhaps did have it roots in resorts and the river, later railroads. The golf courses in the early 1900's supported that growth and demographic. Of course many now have been lost.