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Peter Pallotta

Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« on: February 06, 2021, 08:44:04 PM »
In your years here, have you had any significant changes of opinion? Have you realized you've been wrong about some aspect of golf or gca? Are there once-dearly held beliefs you no longer hold?

For me, I've been wrong and/or have changed my mind-opinions about:

1. Modern high-end golf resorts
2. MacRaynor courses/aesthetics
3. An equipment roll-back/bifurcation
4. Subtlety in design
5. Jack Nicklaus as an architect
6. The 'historical development' of gca as an art-craft, and
7.  Walking vs carting

I have *not* changed my mind -- and am not wrong -- about desert golf, music on the course, or the significance of 'par'. :)


Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2021, 09:02:49 PM »
I will never change my mind about music on the golf course. Makes my head want to explode.


I changed my mind on Florida golf, it’s starting to grow on me.



If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2021, 09:05:03 PM »
Peter:


Doesn't tell us much unless you tell us which way your mind on the topics you noted.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Peter Pallotta

Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2021, 09:26:56 PM »
Sven -
I thought about including that, but then wondered why anyone would care. I listed the '7 items' simply to get the ball rolling & as an example for others willing to include their own changes of heart and mind. But since you asked, briefly:

1. I was wrong to rail against the resort-destination model; in our socio-economic environment, it's the way that great courses get built.
2. I can't believe I once thought MacRaynor courses ugly and 'ungolfy'; they now seem to me both beautiful and the very epitome of 'golf'.
3. Bifurcate, or not. It doesn't matter to the game, or to the vast majority of golfers who play it.
4. If you're *trying* to be 'subtle', it's going to be too subtle.
5. Jack Nicklaus knows what he's doing gca-wise, and long has. That his preferred style/approach is not mine is irrelevant; I was wrong in making such a basic mistake, i.e. confusing substance with style, and 'content' with presentation.
6. It now seems to me clear that the development in gca is more 'cyclical' than it is linear. I tried for years to find the 'through-line', looking for a simplistic 'pattern' and a clear-cut 'narrative'.
7. I thought carts had no place on a golf course, but that was because 'playing golf' was never my number 1 priority when playing a round of golf. I was totally wrong not to recognize that for many/most, 'playing golf' *is* the point; carts don't impinge on that.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 09:37:21 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

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Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2021, 09:34:00 PM »
Several years ago I changed my mind about a few things.

I don't much care for pro golf.

I turned in favour of bifurcation.

Great courses are over rated. 

In recent years:

I have come to think relatively little elevation change isn't important if the terrain is interesting.

9 hole courses are worth my time.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Philip Gordillo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2021, 10:06:56 PM »
Living in the Southern US, my impression of a fine golf course used to be one that models itself after Augusta National with lush green turf, azaleas, and tree lined fairways.  I used to also demand fairness in a golf course so I expected good lies and bunkers to be consistent.  My aha moment was playing a golf course in St. Francisville, Louisiana about 15 years when the entire course was brown and rock hard.  I had never experience much roll prior to then which made all shots fun especially drives and bump & runs.  The ball also reacted much more to fairway and putting green contours. Since then I came to the realization that brown is beautiful!

Carl Rogers

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Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2021, 12:11:32 AM »
I used to think that bunker consistency was important and fairness a neccesity.


I now accept that bunker is a hazard and you get whatever you get in terms of soft, hard, raked, unraked, deep sand & shallow sand.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2021, 04:43:18 AM »
Peter, would be great to hear more on your 4th point. Might need another thread, might not.


I don’t think you can be too subtle for great golf. I do think you can be too subtle for magazine rankings.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2021, 08:45:52 AM »
My wife claims that she will put one of my favorite sayings about myself on my headstone: Often wrong but never in doubt.


I used to think that—


**Short par 4s were just filler
**PH2 was overrated
**Magazine rankings must have some objectivity
**I could get a good sense of links golf by watching The Open on TV


Ira

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2021, 09:01:18 AM »
I am not sure when my evolution started but there was a time I thought the Concord Monster was the epitome of great golf course architecture.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2021, 09:04:05 AM »
As a young fella playing a lot of links golf, I used to pine for “American” style golf with lots of water hazards.


The ground game and feel was something I dealt with every day. The thrill of the forced carry over water was not.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2021, 09:21:20 AM »
I grew up on tree lined courses. I liked it that it made you shape your shots. I still like trees but after playing Oakmont and Philly Cricket before and after tree removal I changed my mind.


I used to think that the quality of the design made no difference to the enjoyment of the round. Not so any more. I live in a place with a Doak 3 or 4 but play Ballyhack, which is two hours away, more than where I live.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2021, 09:31:24 AM »
Living in the Southern US, my impression of a fine golf course used to be one that models itself after Augusta National with lush green turf, azaleas, and tree lined fairways.  I used to also demand fairness in a golf course so I expected good lies and bunkers to be consistent.  My aha moment was playing a golf course in St. Francisville, Louisiana about 15 years when the entire course was brown and rock hard.  I had never experience much roll prior to then which made all shots fun especially drives and bump & runs.  The ball also reacted much more to fairway and putting green contours. Since then I came to the realization that brown is beautiful!


Come on man, admit you liked a Palmer Course, the Bluffs at Thompson Creek!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2021, 09:46:08 AM »
Back years ago, I (among others) engaged in a long, drawn-out argument with Tom Huckaby over range finders in the very early days of those devices.  It was Tom's contention that they would speed play, and I disagreed. 

I was wrong, and Tom was right, and there is a lot of data now to that effect. 
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

archie_struthers

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Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2021, 10:09:09 AM »
 8)




Nah!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2021, 10:19:05 AM »
Back years ago, I (among others) engaged in a long, drawn-out argument with Tom Huckaby over range finders in the very early days of those devices.  It was Tom's contention that they would speed play, and I disagreed. 

I was wrong, and Tom was right, and there is a lot of data now to that effect.


agreed.
I was wrong about that as well.
The side effect is the clutter police have pulled many/most visible markers(the fastest method) and even removed sprinkler yardages(less fast)
Nothing faster than walking off the distance from the visible marker as you approach your ball, or eyeballing the visible marker and estimating(I used to practice estimating 10 yard yardage increments)when you reach your ball. This gives you middle of green yardages which are always useful-so I still do the exercise when markers are easily visible.
but range finders are the second fastest and best for pin yardages.
lasers are also great for zooming in on(seeing features of a fairway or green from distance) on unfamiliar courses
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2021, 10:49:55 AM »
Luckily, a lot of the stuff I was wrong about, I sorted out in the time between starting in this business [early 1980's] and the formation of Golf Club Atlas [1999], or even before the publication of my first book.  It's a great relief that I didn't put anything cringeworthy in there, because I'd still be paying for it.


On the other hand, I am glad my co-authored book on Dr. MacKenzie is out of print, because there were some factual mistakes in there, which is never good for a history book. 


Many of my early writings romanticized the work of the Golden Age designers, and helped to perpetuate the myths about them, while minimizing the degree to which their associates contributed to the finished product.  I certainly wasn't alone in that:  Herbert Warren Wind and others subscribed to the "great man" theory of golf designers long before me, and to be fair, it would have been hard to get anyone interested in the topic back then if they had explained the complexities of design, construction, and credit.  But because all of that is in print and most people read those accounts first, it's harder to correct the record of how things actually happened, and how much help all those "amateur architects" and big names actually had.



And, of course, those myths about the great men are a lot of what drives the business of golf course restoration today.


Philip Gordillo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2021, 10:50:02 AM »
Living in the Southern US, my impression of a fine golf course used to be one that models itself after Augusta National with lush green turf, azaleas, and tree lined fairways.  I used to also demand fairness in a golf course so I expected good lies and bunkers to be consistent.  My aha moment was playing a golf course in St. Francisville, Louisiana about 15 years when the entire course was brown and rock hard.  I had never experience much roll prior to then which made all shots fun especially drives and bump & runs.  The ball also reacted much more to fairway and putting green contours. Since then I came to the realization that brown is beautiful!


Come on man, admit you liked a Palmer Course, the Bluffs at Thompson Creek!


I’m totally busted!  ;D  But it was the conditions that day that made a lasting impression on me.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2021, 12:31:14 PM »
No need for another thread, Ally -- that point was a bit of 'inside baseball'

years ago here I had debates with Redanman (who knew a lot more than I did / do): he found, in the work of a famous & praised architect, the overt subtlety and consciously built subtle features and consistently subtle style overdone and too-highly regarded -- and  he didn't find it particularly interesting either visually or golf-playing wise. I thought he was crazy back then, but I can now see his point, ie when the main goal is to be subtle -- when it is the *aim* of the design instead of the *result* -- I think something is lost



« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 02:34:24 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2021, 01:53:24 PM »
Picked up numerous game and business related nuances herein while gaining knowledge and seeing different sides and aspects of issues.
Hearing direct from experts within the business is invaluable so a big thanks to all of them for their ongoing contributions.
Atb

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2021, 02:57:16 PM »
Great thread topic Peter:

1)  Restoration and Renovation - I used to think most courses should do this, but realized most golf courses should be left the hell alone for the big projects.  Its not to say many couldn't use a few small improvements here and there, but save the big jobs for the few courses that would actually be worthwhile to return to their former glory.
2)  While this one happened soon after i joined GCA, I used to think containment mounding was a simple and effective way to separate holes, so why not...
3)  I used to think I could design and build a course and have it turn out well, but oh so wrong.  If I was ever in the position to do such,  I would adapt the Mike Keiser approach and be a very interested observer and perhaps retain "final approval" status..
4)  Greens - the faster the better.  Nuff said, not at all anymore.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2021, 06:03:02 PM »
I used to be a tree-lined fairway addict but now I'm a maximum width/angles addict.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2021, 06:14:38 PM »
Half of the lawyers that receive our opinions think we’ve (I’ve) been wrong every day, every week. As for gca, I started out as a tree-hugging, species-identifying, tree labeling shade seeker.


As Dylan sang, “ the times they are a changing,” so I’ve reformatted emotion into information, received from experts and now prefer courses that are fast and firm, that are sunnier than shady and that only accentuate hazards that are on, or just below, the ground. Of course, the wind, the weather and the light that comes from above is also a very welcome “hazard” on the course.


For me, it’s been an evolution, not a revolution. And it’s all been acquired from knowledgeable sources. Or so I’ve been told.


But have I been wrong?  Sure, but never in doubt.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 06:18:45 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2021, 06:24:01 PM »
That a course had to be well over 6000 yards and you had to play 18 holes to be real golf.


I love playing 9 holes and I find the most interesting courses to be intricate and intimate sub-6500 yard layouts that are efficient with land use and don't sprawl all over creation.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Peter Pallotta

Re: Have you ever been wrong about anything?
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2021, 06:32:30 PM »
JM - is that like Woody's 'I used to be a heroin addict, now I'm a methadone addict'?

Judge - Of all the ways of being wrong, never being in doubt is one of the best!