[Sean_A]

Niall,

Admittedly Scotland has more depth of interesting golf but I know from a lot of experience in Ireland that the 2nd 50 is just an exercise in random number generation.

I agree with Ally. It's not that there aren't  interesting courses in the back end of the top 100, just that a top 100 list isn't the best way to showcase these courses. The ranking system suggests logic and precision, but that is far from the case. In Scotland its a lack of total numbers which makes me think are there really 100 worthy of this praise. I wish lists would stop at whatever number any sense of panel concensus stops. Then talk about not numbered gems. This system takes better writing and more space and that's good by me.

Ciao

[Clyde Johnson]

As a man who I've asked for golf course guidance before, what would be your top handful of picks that most of us wouldn't have seen?  For arguments sake, could you suggest 5 from number 51-100 on the OP list?

Thanks Simon.


Of those courses people are less likely to have seen, I would recommend:


Durness - It's just beautiful and rugged, but with plenty compelling golf.

Irvine (Bogside) - There are a pair of shorts-fours early in the round that really stand out.

Grantown-on-Spey - Three fairly distinctive six hole runs, with the heathy middle fairly sporty.

Stonhaven - Fairly rudimentary, but somehow 14 holes squeeze themselves between the railway line and the jagged cliff-edge.

Portpatrick (Dunskey) - Varied golf to and over a fairly isolated headland.


Pitlochry gets a good write-up in the Confidential Guide, otherwise I would have included that. There's interesting golf at Duff House Royal, Peterhead, Edzell, Prestwick St Nicholas and Powfoot too.


Of the 16 I haven't played on that list, I'd like to go back and play Covesea and Wigtownshire County (though I suspect that one is fairly flat and devoid of interest.)

[Mark Pearce]

Getting ripped to bits by Scottish golfers over on the facebook.
F.

On a Facebook group where I'm yet to see any sort of informed comment.  It makes me despair about the average golfer.

[Steve Wilson]

Re: Reay


I've played there half a dozen times I suppose and I would say that it's ranking would depend largely on the conditioning one finds there.  Once time, the day Phil M. won the Open, it was so dry there great swathes of the greens that were bare earth.  I don't know whether one should describe the greenkeeping at Reay as primitive or rustic or perhaps even left to the hand of Mother Nature. 


I think the quality of the golf course could see it break the top 100 due to the stretch (4-9 especially) of really good holes on the front and the abundance of quirk on the back.  If memory serves 11, 13 and 16 all play severely downhill.  The eleventh and the thirteenth have blind approaches and the 16th, while everything is visible, plays much like a runaway rollercoaster.


I would enjoy ranking it within a top 100 for the fun of it. In all likelihood it's, conditions permitting, a better golf course than many on the top 100 but not so good as some that have been left off.   

[Angus Moir]

Have not posted for a while but as I grew up in Scotland wanted to add a couple comments..
Clearly no list is perfect!I hail from Aberdeenshire and would suggest Hazlehead no.1((now called the Mackenzie) is a miss...designed Dr M himself. But would also ask you to consider the Kings Links in Aberdeen, Banchory, Deeside and Nigg Bay(Balnagask) are better courses than some of the lower ranked inclusions. Similarily further North, surprised that no Inverness or Forres and Elgin should be on the list.
For those of you familiar with the Odyssey by Bob McCoy you may remember he stayed at the Udny Arms Hotel in Newburgh on Ythan near Aberdeen.He was not impressed but it was a great spot in its day for travelling golfers and is currently being refurbished with a possible opening this year. Also folks may not know that the road from Stonehaven to Newburgh has been massively upgraded and now avoids Aberdeen city centre for those travelling North saving nearly 45 mins in car travel.Dundee to Trump is now about 1 hour.
And lastly it looks like golf in England will be open again in March as the lockdown is eased...confirmation coming Feb 22.Vaccine passports seem to also be under discussion...

[Tony_Muldoon]

Ally, Sean and others, I respectfully disagree. It's the second half of the top 100 list that is interesting. We all know what the top 10 or top 20 is going to be and we can quibble about the particular order but it's mostly all the usual championship links with maybe a shooting star/flavour of the moment thrown in like NB or RD.


The bottom half is much more interesting because it is a much wider variety of courses and a wider range in terms of quality. Of course, much of the difference is subjective because of the variety. It's like trying to compare apples to oranges and that is where I think the interest is.


Niall

For Scotland and Ireland I'd prefer to see something like


Top 1-50


Then each of these groups listed Alphabetically. 
(approx.  10-20 in each  but its up to the panel and would be more 'authentic' if the groups were not of round equal sizes.)

The ones that just missed out
The next you 'have' to see
The ones you shouldn't miss if close by
Total 100
+ Those unlucky to miss out.

On looking again at the list I might amend that to no's 1-30 ranked and then start groups. I've played at least one from each group of ten and e.g. find it hard to come up with compelling reasons to differentiate and rate the quality of E.G. nos 36 Dunbar,  40 Glasgow Gailes, 41 Luffness, 42 Gullane 2.    Albeit I've only played each once (err Dunbar twice).  It gets even harder further down the list.

PS there's not one I regret playing and all featured some excellent holes.

[Tom_Doak]

For Scotland and Ireland I'd prefer to see something like

Top 1-50

Then each of these groups listed Alphabetically. 
(approx.  10-20 in each  but its up to the panel and would be more 'authentic' if the groups were not of round equal sizes.)

The ones that just missed out
The next you 'have' to see
The ones you shouldn't miss if close by
Total 100
+ Those unlucky to miss out.

On looking again at the list I might amend that to no's 1-30 ranked and then start groups. I've played at least one from each group of ten and e.g. find it hard to come up with compelling reasons to separate nos 32, 36 and 40. Albeit I've only played each once.  It gets even harder further down the list.

PS there's not one I regret playing and all featured some excellent holes.

Or maybe a book that gives them a rating and describes a couple of the key features of each, instead of just another list? 

[Tom_Doak]

Vaccine passports seem to also be under discussion...

That won't be much help for 2021, since America's vaccine rollout will not catch very many people under 65 until the autumn.  But maybe the older baby boomers will come and spend their $$$, if they aren't attacked on their way to the airport.

[Brian_Ewen]

Hazlehead no.1((now called the Mackenzie) is a miss...designed Dr M himself.

A MacKenzie? ... even though Aberdeen was so unhappy with the design they blew it up?

[Niall C]

Have not posted for a while but as I grew up in Scotland wanted to add a couple comments..
Clearly no list is perfect!I hail from Aberdeenshire and would suggest Hazlehead no.1((now called the Mackenzie) is a miss...designed Dr M himself. But would also ask you to consider the Kings Links in Aberdeen, Banchory, Deeside and Nigg Bay(Balnagask) are better courses than some of the lower ranked inclusions. Similarily further North, surprised that no Inverness or Forres and Elgin should be on the list.
For those of you familiar with the Odyssey by Bob McCoy you may remember he stayed at the Udny Arms Hotel in Newburgh on Ythan near Aberdeen.He was not impressed but it was a great spot in its day for travelling golfers and is currently being refurbished with a possible opening this year. Also folks may not know that the road from Stonehaven to Newburgh has been massively upgraded and now avoids Aberdeen city centre for those travelling North saving nearly 45 mins in car travel.Dundee to Trump is now about 1 hour.
And lastly it looks like golf in England will be open again in March as the lockdown is eased...confirmation coming Feb 22.Vaccine passports seem to also be under discussion...

For our American friends who maybe don't appreciate this but "Angus Moir" is gaelic for Aberdeenshire Tourist Board, honest !

Angus

I think you are basically making the same point I did about the Glasgow courses and indeed inland courses in general and that is that they are by and large ignored in any discussion on Scottish golf courses.

In terms of Hazlehead, Brian is correct in that it was partially rerouted following MacKenzie being dismissed and the holes that remained were for all practical purposes rebuilt.

Niall

[Niall C]

Tony

I don't know if Tom was alluding to the book that Golf World used to bring out every year entitled "1,000 Best Course in Britain and Ireland". Before you faint at the idea of try to come up with a list of 1 to a 1,000, you can rest easy because they give each course a rating of between 1 and 5 with 5 being the best. Only 50 courses get a 5 star rating. About 200 get a 4 star rating, about 300 a 3 star rating, 260 a 2 star rating and the rest 1 star.

They do have a separate Top 100 listing, as well as Top 10 Heathland, Top 10 Parkland, and Top 10 Links although not sure why they bother with those as you can work that out by simply looking at the Top 100. They also did one off listings for 20 Most Difficult Courses and 10 Best Value for Money.

For many years it was my go to book when thinking about golf trips. What made it so good was firstly it was split into geographical areas so easy to use if you were thinking of a trip to a particular area. Then what made it really good was that each course had random comments from readers, some of which contradicted each other but still managed to give you a flavour of the course/club in a way that a simple number or ranking can't. And of course it had contact details for each club.

I'm not sure when they stopped producing these books but my latest copy is from 2001. If you go on ebay you can probably pick one up for a fiver. Might be a bit out of date but still a lot of very good info.

Niall

[David Jones]

Tony

I don't know if Tom was alluding to the book that Golf World used to bring out every year entitled "1,000 Best Course in Britain and Ireland". Before you faint at the idea of try to come up with a list of 1 to a 1,000, you can rest easy because they give each course a rating of between 1 and 5 with 5 being the best. Only 50 courses get a 5 star rating. About 200 get a 4 star rating, about 300 a 3 star rating, 260 a 2 star rating and the rest 1 star.

They do have a separate Top 100 listing, as well as Top 10 Heathland, Top 10 Parkland, and Top 10 Links although not sure why they bother with those as you can work that out by simply looking at the Top 100. They also did one off listings for 20 Most Difficult Courses and 10 Best Value for Money.

For many years it was my go to book when thinking about golf trips. What made it so good was firstly it was split into geographical areas so easy to use if you were thinking of a trip to a particular area. Then what made it really good was that each course had random comments from readers, some of which contradicted each other but still managed to give you a flavour of the course/club in a way that a simple number or ranking can't. And of course it had contact details for each club.

I'm not sure when they stopped producing these books but my latest copy is from 2001. If you go on ebay you can probably pick one up for a fiver. Might be a bit out of date but still a lot of very good info.

Niall

Niall,


I suspect Tom may have had another series of books in mind, slightly closer to his home!

I had forgotten about the Golf World book, I have just bought one for the princely sum of £3.49!

I always found the Peugeot European guide useful, maybe more on mainland Europe than in the UK, which covered the top 1,000 courses in Europe. They never explained what the scores actually meant but they ranged from 14 to 19 out of 20. Basically therefore a 6 point scale.

The real value though was in the commentary - although always better for some countries than others.

Unfortunately it went out of print a few years ago but I still use them when planning a trip to certain countries.

[Niall C]

Doh. Considering I've got three editions of Tom's book sitting on my bookshelf that is a bit of a blunder.

Niall

[Angus Moir]

Niall


My cover is blown..


I have not played the ‘new’ Mackenzie layout but regardless of how much of Dr M was left in the 1980’s version which I played many times, it was a very good inland course that was well regarded and as you say maybe the inland courses of Scotland do get overlooked.


I won the Scottish Amateur at Renfrew and I recall that being a good inland test to your point about Glasgow city courses not being recognised.


Now back to getting Aberdeenshire on the map again..!

[Brian_Ewen]

I have not played the ‘new’ Mackenzie layout but regardless of how much of Dr M was left in the 1980’s version which I played many times, it was a very good inland course that was well regarded and as you say maybe the inland courses of Scotland do get overlooked.

Angus, may I suggest you get hold of a copy of "The Spirit of St.Andrews" so you can understand how Dr. MacKenzie felt about Aberdonians.


I doubt the people who renamed Hazlehead ever read it 

[Thomas Dai]

My cover is blown..

Well and truly blown as I recall playing with you what seems like a zillion years ago at a certain links course a few miles north of the Granite-Silver City. It would have been a few years after a young Tom Doak first visited there but well before it became deeply entrenched on the overseas visitor trail. Not a lot of dual carriageway heading north back then.
Atb


PS - an aside for the thread about most famously known but not necessarily the best course in a city ... Aberdeen .... best known....? - Best course......?
 [size=78%]https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,69423.0.html[/size]

[Angus Moir]

Brian...many thx for the info on the Dr...I guess he wasn’t happy with local cooncilors but the course I played was a good one.


Thomas...that was a few years ago right enough! On you best/most famous question city course, for Aberdeen I would say that Cruden Bay is the most famous course in the area with non locals, Balgownie is the best/most famous for locals but I think Trump is the best course personally! Trust you are well...

[Niall C]

For comparison here's the list culled from 2001 Golf World book mentioned above. The numbers in brackets are where the course came on the GB&I list. No.'s 28 to 52 are in alphabetical order and are all rated 4 star in the book. No.'s 53 to 105 are all 3 star in the book and are again listed in alphabetical order.


1. (1)                      Muirfield
2. (3)                      Loch Lomond
3. (4)                      Turnberry
4. (8 )                      St Andrews Old
5. (9)                      Royal Dornoch
6. (12)                   Carnoustie
7. (13)                   Gleneagles Kings
8. (22)                   Royal Troon
9. (23)                   Nairn
10. (26)                 Royal Aberdeen
11. (31)                 Prestwick
12. (33)                 Blairgowrie Rosemount
13. (36)                 Western Gailes
14. (40)                 Machrihanish
15. (41)                 Gleneagles Queens
16. (42)                 Cruden Bay
17. (47)                 St Andrews New
18. (53)                 Gullane No. 1
19. (56)                 The Machrie
20. (60)                 Southerness
21. (65)                 North Berwick
22. (69)                 Skibo Castle
23. (78)                 Ladybank
24. (88)                 Crail Balcomie
25. (92)                 Glasgow Gailes
26. (95)                 Murcar
27. (96)                 The Roxburghe


4 star and 3 star to follow.


Niall

[Niall C]

4 Star
        Boat of Garten
        Crieff
        Dalmahoy
        Downfield
        Duff House Royal
        Dunbar
        Edzell
        The Glen
        Gleneagles PGA Centenary
        Irvine Bogside
        Kilmarnock Barassie
        Kingussie
        Leven
        Luffness New
        Monifieth Medal
        Montrose
        Moray Old
        Portpatrick Dunskey
        Powfoot
        Royal Musselburgh
        St Andrews (Dukes)
        St Andrews (Eden)
        St Andrews (Jubilee)
        Scotscraig
        Tain

[Niall C]

3 Star
        Aberdour
        Alloa
        Alyth
        Auchterarder
        Balbirnie Park
        Belleisle
        Braemar
        Brora
        Bruntsfield Links
        Buchanan Castle
        Callander
        Cathkin Braes
        Deeside
        Duddingston
        Dumfries & County
        East Renfrewshire
        Elgin
        Forfar
        Forres
        Fortrose and Rosemarkie
        Glasgow
        Golf House Club (Elie)
        Golspie
        Grantown-on-Spey
        Gullane No. 2
        Gullane No. 3
        Haggs Castle
        Hopeman
        Inverness
        Kilmacolm
        Kilspindie
        Kirkcaldy
        Letham Grange Old
        Longniddry
        Moffat
        Monifieth (Ashludie)
        Moray (New)
        Murrayshall
        Nairn Dunbar
        Newburgh-on-Ythan
        Newmacher (Hawkshill)
        Newmacher (Swailend)
        Panmure
        Pitlochry
        Prestwick St Cuthberts
        Royal Burgess
        Shiskine
Stonehaven
Strathaven
Troon Portland
Turnberry (Arran)
Whitekirk
Windyhill

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