Rory on bifurcation

[Kyle Harris]

Bifurcation works. MLB players can't use aluminum bats and every other player does. Roll back the pro's distance so classic courses can be competed on in the future. The longest players will still be the longest on tour. We don't need 7500+ courses.

Looks at how College Baseball has regulated the bat...


Yeah.


No.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Bifurcation works. MLB players can't use aluminum bats and every other player does. Roll back the pro's distance so classic courses can be competed on in the future. The longest players will still be the longest on tour. We don't need 7500+ courses.

This continues to be a horrible "example" of "bifurcation works."

But please, show me the last time a high school, college, or beer league player was called up to play in the seventh game of the World Series. Or show me how MLB governs the sport around the world, at every level.

The former (equivalent) happens every year in golf, and the latter is true in golf: the USGA and R&A rule everything, top to bottom.

[Kalen Braley]

Erik,

I'm not sure what you mean by your last point.  Yes top notch ams do get to play in majors, akin to World Series, but with 125+ entrants all acting as individual competitors, that's a whole different animal than being one of 9 starters on an elite baseball team.  And when is the last time one of those young ams was even a legit threat in any of those majors?

However, if you want to talk baseball, 19 year-old Andrew Jones hit two home runs against the Yankees in a World Series.  Additionally, just a couple years ago, 20 year old Juan Soto could have plausibly been the MVP of the World Series.  And this doesn't even include the other dozens of younger players who would have been good enough to play in a World Series over the years, but their team didn't make it.

https://www.pinstripealley.com/2020/2/13/21135133/yankees-history-1955-youngest-player-world-series-tom-carroll-mickey-mantle-juan-soto

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I'm not sure what you mean by your last point.

It's really not that complicated. And it's not about age.

[Peter Flory]

Bifurcation works. MLB players can't use aluminum bats and every other player does. Roll back the pro's distance so classic courses can be competed on in the future. The longest players will still be the longest on tour. We don't need 7500+ courses.

Looks at how College Baseball has regulated the bat...


Yeah.


No.

Here's a brief synopsis of the bat evolution and the regs that had to be implemented.  After the big reg changes with the bats, scoring and batting averages drastically decreased.  They got the scoring back to where they wanted it by then modifying the ball to conform more to MLB standards with the flatter seams.  But they achieved their goal in slowing down the speed of the ball off the bat while not having to resort to wood- as wood is much more costly. 
https://www.mlb.com/news/aluminum-evolution

the most interesting thing to me about the rise of the aluminum bats is that eventually, the scouts hated them because the bats rewarded a different skillset than what thrived in the MLB.  Impressive hitters were often fool's gold.  Some strong players would dominate in college with lots of mediocre contact that would result in HRs, but those would turn into fly outs at the next level.

At the height of the juiced metal bat era, college teams were getting stacked with more athletic players who had less all around skills, especially defensive.  It wasn't that humans were getting more athletic, it was just that the bats were rewarding bigger, stronger people and that reward dwarfed other traditionally rewarded skills, like speed, coordination, and throwing ability. 

[Tim Leahy]

Bifurcation works. MLB players can't use aluminum bats and every other player does. Roll back the pro's distance so classic courses can be competed on in the future. The longest players will still be the longest on tour. We don't need 7500+ courses.

This continues to be a horrible "example" of "bifurcation works."

But please, show me the last time a high school, college, or beer league player was called up to play in the seventh game of the World Series. Or show me how MLB governs the sport around the world, at every level.

The former (equivalent) happens every year in golf, and the latter is true in golf: the USGA and R&A rule everything, top to bottom.

It's a perfect example of bifurcation working and both the Korean and Japanese pro baseball leagues use wooden bats.

[Sean_A]

The ruling bodies inched into bifurcation using local rules....if things go ahead as stated. However, at least this way non elite players with enough curiosity and presumably the willingness to spend money can test the equipment in real conditions. I definitely think many will do just that and comparisons will be published in mags etc. I can even imagine equipment companies holding days with toned down equipment at courses.

Who cares what Rory thinks. He is all over the shop with his comments. Honestly I think he is/was confused.

Ciao

[Erik J. Barzeski]

According to Thomas Pagel via Brandel Chamblee the local rule is for 4000 yard courses, not the PGA Tour.

Y’all might be getting way ahead of yourselves.

And comparisons to baseball continue to fall flat.

[Niall C]

I like how easily everyone disregards Rory's comments when they don't suit them as being so clearly motivated by TaylorMade, and yet will accept Rory's comments when they support their argument.

IMO Rory speaks how he feels, with little regard for his sponsor's concerns.

Erik


I tend to think Rory's comments were more self-motivated than by an interest in looking after his sponsor. Think about it, the top pro's on these mega sponsorship deals to promote product are likely to be the ones to suffer. Why would a manufacturer pay the top money they have been paying to have them use equipment that a lot, if not all, amateurs were no longer using.


Niall

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Rory will be about 40 when his current deal ends. I don’t know if he cares about that nearly as much as y’all think.

And it’s just so dismissive to do that. Geoff S used to say the same about me when I worked with Titleist and it couldn’t have been farther from true. We never even talked about it.

[Tim Martin]

Bifurcation works. MLB players can't use aluminum bats and every other player does. Roll back the pro's distance so classic courses can be competed on in the future. The longest players will still be the longest on tour. We don't need 7500+ courses.

I agree it works but there has always been something special in my mind about being able to play the same courses with the same ball and same equipment as the greats of the game. You can’t play baseball at Yankee stadium or basketball at the Garden but you can play golf at Oak Hill or Pebble Beach.

But then again, many already effectively do that by using hickories or 20+ year old equipment.

Kalen-To say that “many” players already bifurcate by using hickory clubs is an overstatement. I would wager the vast majority of players don’t even know they are an option.

[Kalen Braley]

Bifurcation works. MLB players can't use aluminum bats and every other player does. Roll back the pro's distance so classic courses can be competed on in the future. The longest players will still be the longest on tour. We don't need 7500+ courses.

I agree it works but there has always been something special in my mind about being able to play the same courses with the same ball and same equipment as the greats of the game. You can’t play baseball at Yankee stadium or basketball at the Garden but you can play golf at Oak Hill or Pebble Beach.

But then again, many already effectively do that by using hickories or 20+ year old equipment.

Kalen-To say that “many” players already bifurcate by using hickory clubs is an overstatement. I would wager the vast majority of players don’t even know they are an option.

True, but that's why I said Hickories OR old golf clubs, which you still see a lot on public munis, not so much on the privates...

[Bill Brightly]

Anyone catch Webb Simpson's comments? Spoiler alert: have a barf bag ready:


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/02/02/webb-simpson-usga-ra-distance-concerns-equipment-problem/

[corey miller]

College baseball has regulated the Aluminum bats in two ways.  They have addressed (slowed down) the exit velocity which would seem to be most relevant to golf but they have also restricted the weight/length of bat differential.  I do think however that the MLB wood bats of today are much better than when the aluminum bat arms race started.


Just my opinion but an elite college baseball game (with all the restrictions) is much more enjoyable than MLB.

[Jeff Schley]

College baseball has regulated the Aluminum bats in two ways.  They have addressed (slowed down) the exit velocity which would seem to be most relevant to golf but they have also restricted the weight/length of bat differential.  I do think however that the MLB wood bats of today are much better than when the aluminum bat arms race started.


Just my opinion but an elite college baseball game (with all the restrictions) is much more enjoyable than MLB.

Correct, they also have limited the size of the barrel to 2 5/8 I believe. When I played you could have 2 3/4 inch barrel and the best selling bat was the Easton Black Magic. Who remembers this one?  I'm sure many, as the kid whose parents spent the money on the Black Magic was "rich". You would have to ask the kid who owned it before every game could you use his bat? I recall one kid's dad told him nobody could use his bat anymore, as he told his son "it is losing distance by being used so much." Whatever.







By the time I was in college Louisville Slugger TPX was en vouge.





It was around this time where the -4 length to weight ratio became common. I used a 33 1/2 inch / 29 1/2 oz. TPX at Iowa in '96 I recall and a 33/30 the year before. When I switched the next year to add a 1/2 inch, yet drop the weight it did make a difference IMO, particularly on inside pitches where you could rotate quicker. Now I pulled many foul (as did many others), but pitchers were now at a slight disadvantage moreso.




I think the analogy is very applicable and useful, although I would add in lowering the mound in MLB after the 1968 season from 15 inches to 10 inches. Can't generate as much leverage as well as breaking pitches aren't as sharp. Advantage to the hitter as the 68 season had Bob Gibson and Denny McClain have epic seasons.




The baseball seams as others have mentioned have had a big impact on the flight of the ball and it's carry. Who would think just a slight smoothing of the seams would produce more HR's?  It does and pretty well documented, small change/big deal.

[Kyle Harris]

Rory will be about 40 when his current deal ends. I don’t know if he cares about that nearly as much as y’all think.

And it’s just so dismissive to do that. Geoff S used to say the same about me when I worked with Titleist and it couldn’t have been farther from true. We never even talked about it.

You never talked about it because you never *had* to talk about it.

[Mike Feeney]

Quote rings true during our game's technology & distance debates: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

[jeffwarne]

Anyone catch Webb Simpson's comments? Spoiler alert: have a barf bag ready:


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/02/02/webb-simpson-usga-ra-distance-concerns-equipment-problem/

It kind've comes down to whether you think elite players hit it too far at the risk of great courses being altered,or ignored for major events or not.
I've been moaning about this for 20 years, and lately I hear more support than I ever used to hear for the argument.
But many/most of the solutions are nonsensical and way more complicated than ever.
I heard Bernhard Langer(my idol) suggest a bigger ball, then of course he had to suggest that you then needed a bigger hole. NOOOOOOOOO?...Then there's Webb's nonsense spewed by so many.


So if you believe elite players hit the ball too far and ruin the scale-SIMPLY ADJUST THE DISTANCE THE BALL GOES!


Sadly, I  kind've think the ship sailed as most competitive age players(aged 36 and lower) have never played anything but a ProV and a thin faced driver, and have grown up in the optimization era.
Because of this I very much now can see the argument/need to do nothing-probably more than I have in years because...


While I'd still like to see bifurcation, I do worry that the USGA will blow this one as well-which is why I sadly lean lately towards doing nothing....unless it's just the ball they modify.
Cases in point
1.Groove rule -WTF was that?  Used as one "supposed" solution to curb distance by "supposedly" convincing players they needed to hit more fairways(Did nothing and spin was recaptured within 2 years)
Outcome-epic fail-WAS bifurcation by the way as they are still legal till 2024 for amateurs.
2. Anchoring-a couple of players won majors anchoring and they freaked out-Not one classic green has ever been altered due to anchoring, AND if it was an advantage EVERYBODY WOULD've BE DOING IT, the same as everybody plays a thin faced, graphite shafted driver and a multilayer ball.
Outcome-epic fail-especially for amateurs just wanting to stay in the game


Now today's proposed bifurcation
3. The first thing they mention is regulating driver length to 46 inches.
VIRTUALLY NO player on tour plays a 46 inch driver so what exactly will that accomplish? It requires more skill to use and many/most players have decided the trade-off isn't worth it
4. We hear talk about limiting head size-a touring pro can hit the sweet spot-that's not a great skill. A smaller headed driver with a 46 inch shaft(or lower) is still going to travel the same, and it can be argued, swung faster due to less drag/wind resistance. They convinced pros to play oversized hacker clubs to sell more hacker clubs.
This nonsense that they will swing easier is about as logical as the groove rationale was.
Today's players grew up swing full on and will not change and they WILL hit the sweet spot.
Face CONTROL is what separates players, not center contact(which they all make)
and bulge and roll have been around for 100 plus years to counteract slight off center hits.


(If you think "Something needs to be done")In my case this is the ONLY thing I'd like..
So, despite the fact that there are many reasons pros hit the balls miles longer than ever(thin faced, longer,lighter drivers, multilayer balls, optimization, physical conditioning, technique, natural selection of better athletes)
The simplest thing to do is to have a governor on the ball(90%-85% whatever)-and only the ball-maintaining current club standards.
They make balls that push whatever the tolerances are-surely not a hard thing to do given a new standard.
And there would be a huge market for them as all competitive players would use them and all wanna be's.
"I played Pebble and shot 74-using a ProVR (Retro)"


Elite players would choose to play that ball all the time, those on the fringes could switch when appropriate, though ego would drive many to simply choose that ball all the time.
About as difficult as adjusting to altitude.
This will have the added benefit of players who want to be more social and play the same tees, merely switching balls.
Example, I like to play the "old" back tees, which are usually one tee up from the way backs(pretty common for most decent players, especially aging formerly good players.) Now I can still play those tees with the current ball, and my friend and Champions Tour bomber Scott Parel can join me using his Tour ProVR ball,
Or I can move up and play with the ProvR (which I will need to play in certain events)and play with my members from their tees, or a junior etc with his dad etc..
I suggested bifurcation via ball performance years ago in a thread here and it went over like a lead balloon.

And please don't start with handicap/slope/CR nonsense as most don't abide by the rules anyway and no doubt if a course can have 10 combo course ratings it can just as easily have 20.
and maybe some combo tees can be eliminated by merely switching balls.
But this is a bit of a self threadjack-lol.




If they simply shrink heads and limit to 46 inches-nothing will change, and a few people will suffer(those talented enough to hit a 48 inch driver-LPGA-tall players)
I'm cool if you want nothing to change-in that case do nothing.
Imagine having to switch driver heads for different events....
USGA, please don't do something silly-again.


But the real problem is they have "studied" so long, I'm afraid they feel the need to do something complicated to justify the study.


Full disclosure
Taylormade sponsors my show and I'm a paid Taylormade staff member.
I discussed the ideas above yesterday on SiriusXM PGA Tour Radio in between hosting:
 1. par4success.com golf(physical training for more distance)
 2.Brian Manzella-Top 100 Teacher (technique for more distance)
 and paid reads for Club Champion (distance through equipment) and Taylormade(distance through equipment)
3. I even had a segment on Alan Shepards's moon shot-"miles and miles" distance..
so I'm not "anti-distance" and I believe bifurcation can not only exist(it already does), but help the game and by extension,the manufactures(and yes even myself) thrive.
and as Erik has pointed out, it's never come up in conversation with a sponsor(but i'm not Rory either)

[John Crowley]

No disrespect John, but Rory did anything but nail it. The bits that stood out for me was the suggestion that the governing bodies are wasting millions on this. Are they really spending that much ? I've no idea. But if they are, they are spending it in trying to address one of the most talked about issues in golf. I might agree with Rory about some of the projected outcomes and measures but just because you don't like the outcome means the exercise was wrong.

They other thing that stood out for me was at least an insinuation that these organisations aren't spending money to promote the game. It makes me wonder how much he actually knows. 

Niall

Niall, no disrespect taken.
My main intent was to second his take on bifurcation (limited flight ball for tour pro and elite am tournaments) to lessen perceived need for remodels of great or good architecture due to the egos of some private club members not wanting low scores recorded on their courses.
Rory did get a bit off the rails on some of his other comments.
Cheers

[Erik J. Barzeski]

You never talked about it because you never *had* to talk about it.

The simple fact is that Geoff S discarded opinions, like many are doing here, by assuming that I was just a mouthpiece for Titleist, and they were pulling the strings and telling me what to say. The post right after yours by Mike Feeney speaks exactly to that bias or assumption.

Couldn’t have been farther from the truth.

[Thomas Dai]

Sometimes I wonder if the environmental/litigation/political lobby will end up being the re-modellers of golf rather than those actually within golf circles? Bye, bye ‘big golf’. Welcome aboard ‘small golf’?
Time will tell.

Atb