Raleigh CC re-opens tomorrow after Kyle Franz renovation (video)

[rjsimper]

A few things:


1) I have heard good things about the new RCC work.
2) It does not look very "Rossy" to me, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
3) I was surprised to hear they were putting bent in, though I have heard from many that McConnell is a bent guy.
4) One of my biggest complaints about RCC pre-2020 reno is that with the bent greens, in summer they are wet, shaggy, and slow
5) I am curious to see the contours of the greens, because the slowness before was almost a necessity - the old greens running at 11 were impossible in some places.


I hope they made the right choice on the grass for the greens. I know the membership at my club across town is happy with champion and pretty much has been since the stuff went in a decade ago. And Old Chatham has pool tables at their place with champion.


A.G. - Kris isn't doing any work at HVCC (yet) - master plan was done and presented but that's about it. Just a bit of tree removal this winter (which is great)

[Paul Rudovsky]

I have not played RCC and need to do so.


The Bent vs. Bermuda is an interesting one and can be very difficult.  Most Bent greens I have seen are only good in the fall...they tend to be awful in spring and summer...no deep root structure and approach shots go "splatt" upon landing. 


However, the tree issue can be very real...if the course does not "own" or "control" the trees that shade the greens, going to Bermuda can cause very real issues in terms of getting the grass to grow where there is shade. 


And as implied by others above, the downhill grain of current Bermuda grass strains means they can be impossibly fast on downhill putts unless the green are "flattened" somewhat. 

[Jeff Shelman]

I was a member here in the pre-McConnell time and enjoyed my time there. I have only been back a couple of times since and I am interested in seeing it again.


It's a nice piece of property, a good routing and a lovely walk.


The question about the sustainability of the club was never the golf course, it was that it is located east of downtown Raleigh when all of the growth over the past 40 years has been west and north.

[Tim_Weiman]

I am not sure the bunkers look very Ross like. I agree that many off the new courses and renovations tend to have a similar look. Raleigh is McConnell's home club. He takes very good care of the course. It wasn't on life support. I am sure McConnell just wanted to make it better. Like I said he overperforms.

Tommy,


Based on the video I would never guess Ross was the architect.

[Mike Hendren]

Does anyone else here feel that many of the redos these days are all starting to look the same? 

This has crossed my mind, but I'm not qualified to judge much from photographs and certainly not qualified to draw the subtle distinctions in the stylistic nuances of the Golden Age architects.  That said, Beverly, Raleigh and Brook Hollow suggest a common aesthetic dominated by bunkering. Perhaps a little aging will take the glaring newbie sheen off.  Each looks like a great place to tee it up, however and I certainly like what I see. 


Caveat: I have only played Beverly and that was a dozen to fifteen years ago.  It never would have crossed my mind at that time to do anything except leave it alone and enjoy the hell out of it.


Bogey

[Craig Disher]

Wish I had time for more comments as lots of good points raised here.  What I will say is that as long as the members are happy that is what is most important. The course looks great and I hope to get back to play it one day again.  I just hope they don't sell it as a true "Ross" and his last original design.  Maybe the routing is still intact but not sure what else is?  Maybe a good topic for another thread would be where would you send someone to see an authentic Ross or an original design of any of the Golden Age architects?  We all know that courses change and evolve but which ones out there are pretty close to what the original architect designed/intended?  Just to state one example, you wouldn't send someone to study the "Ross" greens at Pinehurst #2 because they are NOT 

The greens on #2 may not be precisely what Ross had finally designed but they are darned close. Take a look at the ground level photos taken in the 1930s of the 2nd and 4th greens and you could imagine that they were taken last week. If anything, Ross's contours have softened and the greens were raised by adding fill but I think Ross would easily recognize them as his, particularly their size and shape.

[Mark_Fine]

Craig,
I know you know the history of what happened there at least as well as I do.  I recall a separate thread on #2 greens many years ago on this site.  I just commented on the #2 greens on the evolving green contours thread as well.  Feel free to add your insight but what I posted is what I know and have heard or read from those much more knowledgable about that course than me.  It all makes perfect sense and I think you have to admit those greens are very different from almost every other Ross course.  He did not purposely design greens as severe as that.  Ross might recognize a few at #2 that are similar to what he had in mind as far as being convex, but on most he would have his mouth wide open in shock.  They are truly a case of greens evolving 

[Craig Disher]

Mark,I'd like to hear what Richard Mandel has to say but from what I've seen from looking at old ground photos the significant change is only the elevation of the greens from their rebuild in the 80s. I don't know if the contours were softened intentionally but they are less than they were. Many years ago before the renovation and after seeing some of the 1930s photos I took a few pictures from where I judged the old ones were taken. Except for the greens' new heights, there wasn't a lot of difference. They can still be approached as they were in the 30s although the shots are more challenging. With the softening of the contours, the putts aren't.

[Mark_Fine]

Craig,
I think we are mostly in agreement. However, as those greens were raised up (even if the internal contours stayed the same) the edges are what changed the most as they now drop off much steeper creating the crowned/doomed shape/appearance.  If they weren't so raised up from all the top dressing (some of the middle of the greens had three feet or more of top dressing when soil probes were done), they would be much less crowned on the edges.  This is where Rees Jones and the team tapered those high edges down to the surrounding grades.

[Chip Gaskins]

This topic has always been one my top 2-3 questions in GCA.... (Raynor's original Cypress routing, MacKenzie's ANGC routing that supposedly hangs on a law firm's boardroom wall in Atlanta not withstanding)
Why is Ross known for "his greens" at #2 when very few (even in Pinehurst, or even at the Resort itself) look like #2 greens.
I think Dunlop White (former GCA poster) did what is thought by many as the best research on this topic about 10-12 years ago if I remember.
Another question is did C&C intentionally not touch the greens on #2 with their recent work there, or were they told to not touch them?

[Mark_Fine]

Chip,
C&C were instructed Not to touch the greens. The ownership did not want them “restored” if you will as they had gained so much notoriety as is.