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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Over the past 60 years I have belonged to a bunch of different clubs. I can honestly say that the clubs where the courses were least interesting had less interest in upgrading the course than clubs with very good courses. At one of the clubs all they had to do is change some of the mow lines and it would have been better. At the better courses most of the members welcomed changes that made the course more interesting. Of course, some of the better courses had more low handicappers. Maybe that makes a difference. I remember remarking to one 25 handicapper that 12 might be the worst hole in the state. He replied, "That's my favorite hole. I can par it once in a while."
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Yes-And currently that is being accomplished through continued tree clearing.




Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't see a lot of that, but then I don't see a lot of courses, at least % wise.  My guess is only 1% of clubs, maybe 2%, is "woke" to the architectural discussions we have had here for 20 years.


Most don't understand carry bunkers, pinch bunkers, etc. that might catch their shots.  They still like lateral bunkers....and everyone wants them about 10 yards further out than their average tee shot......


Not that it's consistent across handicap levels.  High handicaps want it easier, low handicaps want it harder, i.e., grow the rough.


Once, I suggested a Redan and the response was, "Why wouldn't I just want to fly it at the flag?"


Hate to be negative, but this discussion seems to me to be on some other planet, compared to most golfers I know. ::)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
I hate to say it, but it is my firm belief that "most members" (at country clubs, NOT golf clubs) dont who even know who designed their course.


They dont know the difference between:


- good greens and good putting surfaces.
- playing angles and doglegs
- Templates and Signature holes
- a GCA and a Super


The best a member can hope for is that there exists a super who gets it and can have influence.
That and maybe ONE board member whose business CV allows credibility in a board room - even though the subject matter could not be more different.

Jeff Spittel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Yes. At BraeBurn CC in Houston, Tripp Davis and his crew are underway on a comprehensive rennovation project that will restore a lot of the golden age DNA of the golf course. Containment mounds that were the residue of an early 90s redesign will be eliminated, trees that choked playing corridors will be removed, bunkers will be reshaped to fit the scale of the property, etc. We should also have considerably more flexibility in terms of course set up from day to day. You can stay up on the progress on IG under the #BraeBurnCC hashtag. 
Fare and be well now, let your life proceed by its own design.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
It depends on where you belong, but generally, if you've joined a club that isn't architecturally interesting, you are probably less interested in revising it than someone who seeks out architecturally interesting courses.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
We posting herein are essentially hard core golf enthusiasts who love to experience all sorts of courses in all sorts of different places.
I’m not sure this is the norm.

Indeed (even before Covid introduced limitations) I reckon a large number of players, those much less mad keen than us, only ever play their home course or maybe a couple of others nearby and thus don’t gain much experience of what else is happening elsewhere within the game. They thus don’t acquire much knowledge of other aspects of courses and architecture to bring back to their home course and suggest be undertaken.
Atb
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 12:06:48 PM by Thomas Dai »

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm not sure that most club golfers even have the vocabulary to think in terms of architectural interest. Accepting that the median club player at most clubs is not a particularly good ball striker, it is difficult to see what a more interesting course would mean for them. Most of the more interesting architectural aspects of the two courses at my main club tend to be things that the median golfer thinks of as unfair or in need of being flattened out. 

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
I am with Jeff and Ian and Jim and Thomas,..on this one.  Most members/golfers couldn't name two architects if you asked them (a few might have heard the name Ross) and 99% don't know or care who designed the golf courses they play.  That may come as shocking to most but it is true.  When I joined my club, 95% or more didn't know they belonged to a Flynn course or even cared.  But many (at least some) were interested in learning.  The far majority of golfers don't care about golf architecture but that doesn't mean they don't appreciate good golf architecture. They might not just recognize it as such.  Most want something that is fun and interesting and well conditioned.


I have found that it is usually a savvy superintendent or a curious and dedicated committee member that is the champion for a restoration or renovation project.  They do some research and realize what they have or don't have and help drive the whole process.  I have NEVER been involved with a successful project where I couldn't point to one or two key people that helped make the project happen.  Those few champions were the catalyst and from there the whole education process starts.  By the end of most projects the number of those interested in "the golf architecture" will have grown but most still don't really care, they just want their golf course back and want it to be at least as good or better than it was before.  But I am ok with that.  The real challenge on projects is dealing with the ones that are totally against any changes (even though they don't realize how much their golf course has already changed over the years) or have their own agenda based on their own game.  Mike Young often talks about people claiming they are "Golf Architects", well I find that almost everyone thinks they are a Golf Architect.  But that is ok as long as you hear them out and can get an open minded dialogue going.  Most people will listen and it is very satisfying when they start to see their golf course and GCA in general in a different light.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm not sure that most club golfers even have the vocabulary to think in terms of architectural interest...


That's the problem. It shows up most clearly when you ask someone why the liked (or disliked) a course. They often lack a vocabulary to express themselves, so their responses default to something about turf conditions or the quality of the cart paths.


The situation reminds me of a line from a letter Mozart wrote to his father. Paraphrasing here, Mozart said "people love my music but they don't know why".


Bob

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sorry, I should have been clearer in my question. I understand about clubs in general. I was curious about YOUR CLUB. I live at a little golf/ski Bryce resort in the VA mts, with a grade "C" course. Years ago I brought in architect who made some suggestions. Folks hated them and it was never done. Ballyhack, Four Streams, and Musgrove Mill were different stories. The players wanted to make the course better.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think we have to remember that all the restoration talk really applied to a few hundred golden age courses.  I doubt many care to restore a 1950's Floyd Farley course, or even a 1980's Jeff Brauer course.  Many of those were built on shoe string budgets, and were limited in design because it was all they could afford.  And, many kept having features (i.e., bunkers, trees) added as someone thought they were necessary. 


Even most master plans these days focus as much on replacing 25 year old infrastructure as it does design, and then its a bit easier to convince someone that as long as you are replacing greens mix, tile, etc., that it doesn't cost a whole lot more to do the entire complex. I never get a question like, "How have you carried forward design principles from the Old Course in your current work?"  It's more like, "How big should our tees be?"



Golfers don't often understand architecture, but they know what they like, sort of like art.  Hard to know, but that suggests its overall ambiance and aesthetics, over any particular design feature, other than unfair ones, like creeks they can't clear, doglegs they can't get to, etc.


To answer Tommy's revised question, back when I had a club (now under some warehouses) and actually remodelled it, it was mostly good players driving the discussion and that was directed more at tougher than more interesting, sort of like they were still reading their 1970's rankings from Golf Digest, and hadn't bothered to catch up to current flavor of the decade thinking. :)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 12:27:17 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tommy,
I told you about my home club but I contend most others are not that different.  Take the Olympic Club or even Merion as examples.  I would bet there are only a handful of people at either of these clubs that have any idea of the history or evolution of those two golf courses.  That is not meant to be nasty or even a criticism, it is just a fact.  I was asked the other day about a course I have played for years and I am ashamed to say I don't know who designed it  :(

If you are a skier, do you know who laid out the slopes you are skiing on?  Believe it or not, there are "ski resort architects" but how many really know who they are or could list a few names?  The answer is probably about as many as who know who designed the golf course they are playing. 


The other problem is sometimes those people who "want to make the course better" are the ones who,.......I will leave it at that.  Most all have good intentions.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Watch out when members start mentioning the need for a ‘Beautification Committee’.
Atb

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Watch out when members start mentioning the need for a ‘Beautification Committee’.
Atb
Thomas good one.
My unsolicited recommendation is to have the following committees:
  • waterfalls
  • comfort stations
  • steam, sauna, bath house
  • Taj Mahal maintenance "sheds"
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tommy,

If you are a skier, do you know who laid out the slopes you are skiing on?  Believe it or not, there are "ski resort architects" but how many really know who they are or could list a few names?  The answer is probably about as many as who know who designed the golf course they are playing. 



Interesting about ski areas. I don't know who designed them but most have added terrain like crazy. I've been skiing at Breckenridge for decades. Since I began skiing there they added peak 10, then, peak, 7, then peak 6. Same is true for Vail, and Arapahoe Basin. But I think When ABasin opened the Montezuma Bowl they only cut down a few trees and added a lift.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tommy,
And on those ski slopes, do you care or know who designed them?  You just want them to be fun and beautiful and in good condition  :D   Sound familiar?  And guess which ones are usually considered the best?  The ones with the greatest sites  :D   


I have a buddy who is into ski slopes etc like I am into GCA.  He knows all this stuff.  Lots of analogies to GCA.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 03:12:20 PM by Mark_Fine »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
My experience is that the majority of our members think it’s interesting enough but seem to embrace changes after they happen.
AKA Mayday

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't think we give our members enough credit.
Many are eager to learn, or at least read the newsletter/communications with curiosity.
It's critical that a proper message go out.


Some of the newsletters I see would would surprise you in their lack of forward thinking,doing little to educate the members they are supposedly keeping informed, especially given the pedigree of some of the courses they come from, while other chairmen communicate architectural tidbits about their course that are very well received and allow continued education of the membership.
These are the courses and memberships that embrace positive change, and continue to get better.


If your newsletter comments about green speeds, locker rooms, flower beds and consistent bunkers-that's probably what you're going to keep getting.....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
We have 3 courses at my club which is private but is not owned by the members and when I first joined there were 150 yard poles in the middle of the fairways which drove me nuts.  I was continually harping on this subject with the professional staff and telling the members that the poles are awful and there is absolutely no need for them.  In fact, the Champions Tour plays an event at the course every year and they had taken them out during the tournament each year and then they went back in afterwards.  About 6 years ago they permanently took them out and some guys gave me crap about it and just could not see why the courses were better without them.  This was far more basic than architectural improvements and they just couldn't see it. They no longer bring up the subject. 


When we got a new greens superintendent about 3 years ago I told him how I felt about an area which was in the rough on parallel holes from 2 of the courses which I had already mentioned to the professional staff.  The area had trees that were obviously planted and some were evergreens which had branches right down to the ground as well as tree roots, etc.  It caused long searches for balls, lost balls with a return to the tee, impossible recovery shots, etc.  The new super did take them out and this time I got complements from some of the members although again, I had only made suggestions and it was not my decision to make. 


My point is that there are ways to make courses better that are very basic and simple yet there is all too often resistance to any change.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't think we give our members enough credit.
Many are eager to learn, or at least read the newsletter/communications with curiosity.
It's critical that a proper message go out.


Some of the newsletters I see would would surprise you in their lack of forward thinking,doing little to educate the members they are supposedly keeping informed, especially given the pedigree of some of the courses they come from, while other chairmen communicate architectural tidbits about their course that are very well received and allow continued education of the membership.
These are the courses and memberships that embrace positive change, and continue to get better.


If your newsletter comments about green speeds, locker rooms, flower beds and consistent bunkers-that's probably what you're going to keep getting.....




I agree--if presented well, most members welcome improvements. The hard part part is explaining what can/should be done and why they'll like it.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
JM,
I agree that most members especially those that take interest in a renovation or restoration project are receptive to learning.  You always get a few but that goes with the territory.  And the learning goes both ways as it is their course and many of them know it well.  The key as some have said is how you present things.  But at the end of the day, most are there to play golf and don't really care too much about all the GCA terminology. 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
I guess Im the only guy left who likes some sortve 150 marker.......
Eyeball it and go.
I get the barber pole issue ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I guess Im the only guy left who likes some sortve 150 marker.......
Eyeball it and go.
I get the barber pole issue ;D
Jeff no you aren't!  Maybe it is a Jeff thing ;) .
I also don't mind a little pine tree planted at the 150 mark off the fairway!   :o
Seemed like a good idea when they built the course until 20-30 years later better bring your chainsaw.

Also a big fan of Red, White, Blue flags to denote front middle, back.  Didn't realize I was old school until years after I guess I was.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
The most vocal don't want change, because they like bringing in guests with a similar handicap, and beating them handily. That perhaps tells you how bad the course is. They don't correlate their greedy desires with how it makes it hard to recruit members.  Unfortunately, you have to have a pandemic to help with recruiting.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne