Is there a worse pond than 18 at Torrey South?

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I'd love to hear about it. Or worse water features in general?

[Tom_Doak]

There are tons of ponds like that on courses built in the 1950's, 60's and 70's.  Mr. Jones in particular liked to put ponds in front of the green on par-5 holes.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

There are tons of ponds like that on courses built in the 1950's, 60's and 70's.  Mr. Jones in particular liked to put ponds in front of the green on par-5 holes.

It looks like an overgrown puddle. Why not a barranca type feature? Sort of a "dry" hazard?

[Rob Marshall]

I think it was the 17th on RCD. That pond kind of comes out of no where.


The old 15th at Oak Hill East. Hated that pond.

[MKrohn]

Was just about to say that Rob, gets my pick, particularly as I drove into it after having an average day off the tee. 


https://www.royalcountydown.org/championship_17

[John Kavanaugh]

I doubt if you can name a pond on an 18th hole that has provided more championship drama, including the ocean at Pebble.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Was just about to say that Rob, gets my pick, particularly as I drove into it after having an average day off the tee. 


https://www.royalcountydown.org/championship_17

Wow it's shaped like a Dorito!

[Matt_Cohn]

There are tons of ponds like that on courses built in the 1950's, 60's and 70's.  Mr. Jones in particular liked to put ponds in front of the green on par-5 holes.

It looks like an overgrown puddle. Why not a barranca type feature? Sort of a "dry" hazard?

Well, nothing about Torrey's architecture is very "natural". The pond is kind of ridiculous, but it works to make it an interesting hole and doesn't feel any more manufactured than a number of other features on the course.


If Gil Hanse rebuilt Torrey from the ground up I doubt he'd put a pond in there, but that's not happening anytime soon.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom B,
Is it mostly the aesthetic of the pond that you don’t like or the fact that it is water with no chance of recovery?

I remember having discussions with Forrest about this hazard.  I recall he liked it more than me but it is a very functional hazard.  We can all think of countless finishing holes that feature water or an non-recoverable hazard near and/or fronting the final green.  Many architects have used this kind of feature some as Tom Doak said countless times.  Even Augusta has two of them but not on the finishing hole.

I think the aesthetic could be enhanced but the risk/reward probably wouldn’t change too much.  I have seen worse but am hesitant to cite examples.  I will however second (I guess it is now third) the one at Royal County Down.

[Mike_Trenham]

I nominate Poppie’s Pond.

[Paul Carey]

As I recall the pond was moved green side in the 1975 renovation.  Prior to that is was about 30 yards from the edge of the pond to the green.  If my recollection is correct that would be an even worse pond.  I will try to find photos from that era.

[Kalen Braley]

https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer

This site shows:
- No pond in 1966
- In 1980 the pond appears
- Between 1999 and 2002 its shows the pond has been enlarged, which looks to be what is there now. (Not sure if they modified in renovation a few years ago)

[M. Shea Sweeney]

I doubt if you can name a pond on an 18th hole that has provided more championship drama, including the ocean at Pebble.

if Pebble Ocean qualifies than
Doral 18 water greenside over Torrey 18 water

[Kalen Braley]

Perhaps the 18th at Bay Hill?


Edit:  For the more drama category, not the worst pond contest

[David McIntosh]

I think it was the 17th on RCD. That pond kind of comes out of no where.

Was just about to say that Rob, gets my pick, particularly as I drove into it after having an average day off the tee. 

I will however second (I guess it is now third) the one at Royal County Down.

You may be pleased to know the pond on the 17th at RCD is now a bunker. It remains the same triangular shape as the pond but not sure if there are any plans to alter it.

[Mike Hendren]

It works.

[V. Kmetz]

Unless the perspective is locked against any such water element as artificial, I think it's an apt and merited piece. I can comprehend the critique that in an ocean side setting with bluffs and vistas, it's a bit tawdry by comparison, and may, in that view, be worse still because it comes on 18.


The playing truth for me is:

• for all but 2% of golfers, it's a three shot hole and thus the pond is usually a hazard for one's shorter irons. As such it is a more acceptable threat.
• that big, interesting green coordinates well with such a threatened shot; smartly-played short irons and wedges can use the contours and find the plateaus; the pond is not nearly as nervous-making when the pin isn't front left.
• even in the common 3-shot model, the pond aptly influences 2nd shots, as that day's pin is readily observable and the lie and angle of 3rd shot crossing becomes the issue, as well as how far to lay back.
• the design of the land approach at the front right, for those necessarily desperate to avoid crossing approach, is sound, you can sling, and bounce a variety of shots past the water and into the heart of the green.
• though I can see the critique (above) of an "artificial dinky pond as an ocean course finisher," I sort of like it for just that reason... it's like an unexpected complication, a last steeple challenge, a closing thrill borne of an afterthought.
• as a spectator of elite golf, it has provided a lot of end-tournament interest.

***My one and only play of TPS recalls an item that others have mentioned.


That the fronting slope beyond the pond wasn't nearly as sharp, nor as closely mown; and that the water came up much closer to physical front edge... I remember it being gentler and not an automatic rollback into the drink.... I dunno, maybe it's a faulty memory.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I can buy that the pond makes the 18th more dramatic for tournament play. My objection is aesthetic, as it looks like a giant puddle after a rainstorm that hasn't fully drained. It also doesn't tie in to anything around it, meaning if it Torrey just a meadow or something, it would be unlikely that a pond would be there, you would expect gathering type features to converge in that area but there aren't any.

[Scott Warren]

The 18th at The European Club would like a word.

[Paul Dolton]

There's a shocker on the Eden course at St Andrews.

[AChao]

Pond makes sense strategically.  Terrible aesthetically and just doesn’t fit well with rest of course.  At least there isn’t a big waterfall.

[Kyle Harris]

There are tons of ponds like that on courses built in the 1950's, 60's and 70's.  Mr. Jones in particular liked to put ponds in front of the green on par-5 holes.

Ostensibly "to add interest."

[Mark_Fine]

Tom B,
Your comment about the aesthetic is the reason great sites generally yield the greatest golf courses.  It is also the reason architects try if they can to go above and beyond to make their golf courses pleasing to the eye. 


Ross once stated, "The fascination of the most famous hazards in the world lies in the fact that they were not and could not have been constructed."  He avoided the use of the word created, because he felt a real hazard is and must be a creation of nature.  Ross I think was mostly correct but these days it is amazing what money can "sometimes" build.  In the case of The Devil's Billabong as that pond is called, Rees could have maybe done better but a pond is a pond and most any water hazard there was going to look unnatural. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Haven't played there in 8 years or so, but I recall the hole is slightly uphill, making the pond blind to golfers, at least from the angle I was coming in from.  IMO, that makes it even a worse call to add.  Looked at topo on the historicaerial.com site, and it says the hole is dead level with slight cross slope, so maybe I'm wrong, but it's still sometimes hard to see ponds with little depth along the line of play on level ground, as well.

[Tommy Williamsen]

It sure isn't the most aesthetically pleasing, but it does add excitement, even on third shots. I can't remember who it was but a player in one of the last groups chilly dipped his third shot into the pond. RTJ designed bunches of holes with similar themes.