Can we make some of these clubhouses public and keep the golf private?

[Mike_Young]

Any thoughts on separating clubhouses out of some of these viable private clubs?  Keep pro shop and locker room/grill as part of private 501c7entity and place remainder of clubhouse facility in a "for profit" entity.  I think it could save some places...

[Jaeger Kovich]

I've been saying this about one course I work at for years. A private eating club is a tough biz.

[Mike_Trenham]

I’ve never really understood how club officials of a struggling club get so wrapped up around protecting their not for profit status, when they are not able to make a profit.


One of the biggest challenges here in Pennsylvania is that a club liquor license has restrictions and can’t be exchanged with another entity.  In my area licenses for a bar or restaurant are pricey.

[Ronald Montesano]

At River Oaks golf club, (Desmond Muirhead, Grand Island, NY) the restaurant is open to the public. RO is a golf club (no pool, pond, nor tennis courts) with a very good course, and a diverse membership that eschews the bnllsh!t of privacy-at-all-costs club culture.

[Jim Sherma]

I believe Steel Club in PA (FKA Silver Creek and Bethlehem Steel Club in its two prior ownerships) has the golf and pool as a separate entity from the f&b. New ownership is doing some interesting things there.

[Duncan Cheslett]

In the U.K. an increasing number of clubs franchise out their entire F&B operation in return for a set monthly rental. The clubhouse becomes in effect a public bar/restaurant.


It is my preferred model. Few clubs make a profit in the clubhouse from members and guests only.


My club turned a £20k annual loss on the house into a £35k profit within a year by franchising the whole place out.

[Ryan Coles]

Have worked with all models and would summarise as:


A) If there’s no money in it, you are setting your franchisee up to fail and it will be a revolving door combined with poor service / quality. Square one every 18 months.


B) If there is money in it, members get stroppy about money leaving the club and the board get envious about the franchisee making a go of it and look to renegotiate, creating the scenario of A) above.


In my view the best method is for the Club to be commercially ambitious and be in house. If it’s profitable, all well and good. If it isn’t, make it a manageable loss whilst retaining full control. If a franchisee can make a success of it, a well managed Club should be able to do likewise.

[Mike_Young]

Have worked with all models and would summarise as:


A) If there’s no money in it, you are setting your franchisee up to fail and it will be a revolving door combined with poor service / quality. Square one every 18 months.


B) If there is money in it, members get stroppy about money leaving the club and the board get envious about the franchisee making a go of it and look to renegotiate, creating the scenario of A) above.


In my view the best method is for the Club to be commercially ambitious and be in house. If it’s profitable, all well and good. If it isn’t, make it a manageable loss whilst retaining full control. If a franchisee can make a success of it, a well managed Club should be able to do likewise.

I'm speaking of the club doing it in house...no franchisee...agree with you as to problems there. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Firm believer in less is more when it comes to dining at the club. Simple fare well done works best. Less employees better and "fine dining"  is best left to great chefs and restaurants. Good bar food and daily specials work well and if you have a talented chef he or she can make it fun on busy weekends when need be. Nothing better than a great barbecue at a golf course or outside grill on the deck. A lot of people see fifty or so people eating dinner and think they are killing it what they don't see is that dinner is the toughest meal of the day. If you don't hit critical mass in numbers served it's hard to squeeze out a profit.


Then there are weddings and banquets an excellent profit center if your location warrants. If you can't do it really well though it's one more thing that you should leave to experts.

[jeffwarne]

Somehow Palmetto did it with one of these and a cooler in the pro shop for over a hundred years....

[Dave McCollum]

I agree with Archie about less is more.  We're public, but our f&b concept is we're a good pub and catering facility.   

[Ronald Montesano]

River Oaks does it in house, but leaves restaurant open to public.

[Mike_Trenham]

Another issue for certain clubs is zoning.  Many clubs are nestled into residential neighborhoods where a public restaurant would not be a by-right use.

[Tim Gavrich]

One of the best examples of this dynamic that I've seen is the superb 1896 Public House at Kalispel G&CC in Spokane, Wash. The course does take outside play from guests of the Northern Quest casino hotel, but otherwise it's basically member golf with the restaurant open to all.

[SB]

For many years, the restaurant at Hartefeld National was run as a public restaurant.  I always heard that it worked very well, but I don't think that's the case any more.

[ward peyronnin]

Evansville CC allegedly makes an F&B profit. That being said the first tee has a panoramic view and later tee times on frid/Sat/Sun often conflict with wedding parties, parking is oversubscribed and we are landlocked so members are SOL, and earlier tee times enjoy locker rooms with empty drinks bottles trash and even puke, drunks wandering through member dining areas. I know I know the club should manage that last better or I could redress the board( little chance for results there) but I am just saying it is not just snootiness that contributes to a desire to resist opening to the public or to be very mindfully done

[Matt_Cohn]

Can you make the courses public (sometimes) and keep the clubhouse private?

[archie_struthers]

 

 Ward's questions about golf and banquets is excellent.  Its best if there isn't an interface between the two. If you
 can have separate entrances for golf and members and banquet guests it's even better by design.



As to Hartefeld being profitable remember the proprietor was a world class restaurant guy and one of the best storytellers ever. Davis Sezna. Had a couple great bars and restaurants in Delaware for many years. He had learned from his father Wally , another legendary hospitality guy. Both could also play golf really well!


So, without the leader of the band ....

[Tim_Weiman]

For many years, the restaurant at Hartefeld National was run as a public restaurant.  I always heard that it worked very well, but I don't think that's the case any more.

That was a very nice place.

[Bruce Katona]

Hot dogs, tap beer, fountain soda & snacks are huge profit margin foods.


F&B is a tough business to turn a profit in, even more difficult than golf.


Arche is spot on with Dave Sezna - world class operator and yet Hartefeld struggled for many years.

[Rob_Waldron]

Mike


Royce Brook GC in NJ has 36 holes. One course private and one course public with a clubhouse that is open to the public. The Club accommodates members with a private section in the clubhouse.  The banquet space is open to the public. One note is that the Club is for profit.


I am working with a Midwest Club that offers a very inexpensive "Social" and "Dining" memberships which greatly extends the membership base and potential diners. This also reduces the awkward situations created when the public shares dining area with members.

[PCCraig]

I'm sure you could, but I think it would depend on the club and the surrounding area. Would a guy who's paying $500-$1000/month really want to saddle up to the bar next to someone who just walked in from the street for free? I don't know...


I've heard of city clubs now looking to create "member" spaces with more visible spaces being made open to the public. Kind of like the Soho House model.


Has anyone heard of the new F&B model at private clubs where your dues go up/there is an upfront fee at the beginning of the year...then all of your F&B is at cost. Essentially a Mill River for food. A fairly prominent local club here went this way and the menu shows $1 beers, $12 bottles of wine, $25 tomahawk steaks, etc. I'm told the idea is that it helps drive foot traffic and business to the club's restaurant. 

[Matt_Cohn]

Has anyone heard of the new F&B model at private clubs where your dues go up/there is an upfront fee at the beginning of the year...then all of your F&B is at cost. Essentially a Mill River for food. A fairly prominent local club here went this way and the menu shows $1 beers, $12 bottles of wine, $25 tomahawk steaks, etc. I'm told the idea is that it helps drive foot traffic and business to the club's restaurant.

Monterey Peninsula CC did that a few years ago for that exact reason. As a guest, it feels like stealing! But it seems like a great model all around. I'm not a member anywhere, but I've always thought it must be unpleasant to pay monthly dues at a club and still get charged $14 for a tuna wrap. 

[Garland Bayley]

Somehow Palmetto did it with one of these and a cooler in the pro shop for over a hundred years....

For the F&B operation that wants to be more upscale than Jeff suggests.

[PCCraig]

Has anyone heard of the new F&B model at private clubs where your dues go up/there is an upfront fee at the beginning of the year...then all of your F&B is at cost. Essentially a Mill River for food. A fairly prominent local club here went this way and the menu shows $1 beers, $12 bottles of wine, $25 tomahawk steaks, etc. I'm told the idea is that it helps drive foot traffic and business to the club's restaurant.

Monterey Peninsula CC did that a few years ago for that exact reason. As a guest, it feels like stealing! But it seems like a great model all around. I'm not a member anywhere, but I've always thought it must be unpleasant to pay monthly dues at a club and still get charged $14 for a tuna wrap. 

Right. I think a club and a restaurant are two separate things. As a member you have to support an unsustainable business either with outside events or through overpriced F&B. If I had to pay an extra fee at the beginning of the year, but could get $1 beers I certainly wouldn't go out to other restaurants as much!